Japanese Knife for Chicken

[Matt_T]

I want to try one of the double-beveled Japanese knives primarily for cutting up chickens. I figure if I get a good tool and make it more enjoyable to break down whole chickens, I'll buy them more often and save money in the long run. (How's that for rationalization?)

This page at Korin is not as much help as it might be...there are several styles, each equated with a Western "boning" knife (of which there are at least two types). Then there's the deba, which I thought was a "cleaver" but now read in an old thread here is not meant for bones heavier than ribs. Finally there's MAC's mysterious CL-6, which might be a honesuki, or a futuristic deba, or ?

Usually when confronted with a whole chicken I just seperate legs, thighs, and wings at the joints and filet off the breast meat. Sometimes I will bone the thighs but not usually. Sometimes I will split the carcass either for bone-in breasts or for half chickens on the BBQ. I've been using a 6" flexible boning knife for the supremes, a 6" utility for most of the jointing and a chef's knife or Chinese cleaver for the splitting. So I wind up with chicken goo over 3 or 4 knives. And I don't even really like any of the knives in these roles: the boning knife handles the filetting fine but feels too long for boning thighs so I often end up doing that with a thin stamped paring knife. The others are a little too light for what I ask of them here and I wind up dinging my edges.

If I want one knife for the jointing and filetting that is my usual approach, will a honesuki do the trick?

I think I need a cleaver of some kind so I can stop abusing the big knives I've been using to split chickens, and to cut up whole fish as well...would a deba be sturdy enough, or should I just get a western cleaver?

If I do get a deba I have my eye on this rustic looking fellow from Japanwoodworkers, recommended in another old thread here. But how major are the maintenance issues with a cast-iron blade - especially in a knife that will not see daily use? I can't imagine it could be seasoned like a skillet, with that wood handle.

Thanks!

MT

[kristin_71]

As I have said before, I use only MAC. I have a deba, for whole fish etc. But I also have the SDK-85 clever. It is suggested that if you are going to cut large thick vegetables and fruit, to get a clever because it is better able to handle that type of cutting. (these are the instructions that come with each knife.) I actually use my clever for cutting through chicken bones etc. Yea it is as much as some of the chef's knives, and in some cases more. But they are really good. The deba is a little on the heavy side but I personally like that in a knife. I want to be able to feel the knife in my hand. The SDK-85 has some heft to it too, but it is a really good knife, as all MAC's are.

MAC Knife Offical Site

[sanrensho]

I use a deba for breaking down chickens, but it isn't ideal. I haven't used it, but the garasuki looks like a better choice for actually separating the meat from bones.

[Matt_T]

Thanks. I like Mac too, I have their SK-65 santuko which is a great small prep knife. Their SD-65 deba is on my radar, especially if the wrought iron blade from japanwoodworkers looks like too much hassle. As for large tough-skinned veggies....I'm pretty happy with my 10" chef for that purpose, and will probably be happier when my 240mm gyuto arrives. Any cleaver-type blade I added to my collection would be primarily for dealing with meat, fish, and chicken bones.

MT

Edited July 11, 2007 by Matt_T (log)

[Octaveman]

I've used a honesuki, a western deba and a traditional deba for this purpose over the years. The traditional deba is what I'm using right now. The garasuki (never tried one) is just a larger honesuki usually about 180mm to the honesuki's 150mm. I know someone who bought the Glestain Garasuki and said it's definately a beast but works great. All of these choices are better than their Euro counterpart for a couple of reasons: 1) knuckle clearance is a huge advantage and 2) nice stiff blade.

I've found the honesuki at 150mm too small for me and a traditional deba at 180mm too big. This means that for me 165mm might be the ideal length. I've tried to find a 165mm honesuki but there is none and I've treid to find a 165mm western deba but the choices are not what I'd want. There will be one available in the new Hattori line but won't be ready for a long while. So I bought a few months ago a 165mm stainless traditional deba from Korin (actually Korin's brand) which is manfuactured by Suisin (see pics below). So far after months of use, I like it a lot. The HRC is low enough to not really have to worry about chipping and it's proven itself by going through ribs and the back as well as taking the meat off the bone. With Korin's July sale going on, it may be a good time to snag this if it appeals to you.

THIS post in a knife recommendation thread talks in more detail about this very subject. There's also a lot of good info in there in general. Great thread on knives.

Cheers,

Bob

[Octaveman]

If I do get a deba I have my eye on this rustic looking fellow from Japanwoodworkers, recommended in another old thread here.  But how major are the maintenance issues with a cast-iron blade - especially in a knife that will not see daily use?  I can't imagine it could be seasoned like a skillet, with that wood handle.

Tosagata knives are very good knives for the money. Cheap handle and rough kurouchi finish but they do a great job at cutting s**t up. The iron is only the cladding. The core cutting edge I believe is white carbon steel. This wouldn't take any more maintenance than any other carbon steel knife...wash and dry thoroughly when done. Don't let it sit wet, etc. I can't check the link you gave because I guess JWW's server is down right now. I believe the atsu deba is the one to get. Heavy duty knife perfect for chicken ribs, back, etc.

[Matt_T]

Thanks Bob! I'd been through that old thread but somehow missed the bit on these knives. Thanks for the link.

I find a 6" (~150mm) utility about the right length for me, just not the right shape or weight....so it sounds like a honesuki is definitely worth a try. As for the deba, it was the atsu deba I was trying to link to - Japanwoodworker says they only take orders for that line of knife in the winter, so I have time to ponder.

MT

[mrsadm]

My first choice for hacking up chickens: Chinese Cleaver

2nd choice: Japanese Deba knife

For boning I use a Wusthoff boning knife, nice and strong, more suited I think than a Japanese boning knife which is lighter and more delicate than the German knife. I use my Japanese boning knife for slicing.

[Octaveman]

Matt, JWW's link is working now so I got a chance to read a little. My only concern with this knife is that at HRC 63, it will be too hard to go through chicken bones without chipping. It could handle fish bones without a problem but chicken bones I'm not so sure about. Of course, at that price it's worth trying out. I'm surprised they don't have any in stock.

[Matt_T]

I haven't actually called to ask but this from the JWW description of the same maker's Satsuma knife:

"This finely crafted kitchen knife comes from Tosa on Shikoku Island. This Region is much more rural and forested than other parts of Japan, and the farmer/blacksmiths still adhere to the old ways. They only work at the forge during the winter months after the harvest is completed. So our orders for knives can only be filled in the winter season. "

I see now JWW is referring to their wholesale orders, and they may well have some in stock. But wanted to post the description as it adds to these knives' character....I'll have to get one of those in some pattern or other, eventually.

I was wondering about the hardness....maybe a softer, sturdy but inexpensive Western cleaver is all I need.

[kristin_71]

Be careful though Matt when using your chef's knife to cut thick vegetables like squash and stuff. MAC actually advises that you use the clever.The knives come with instructions, and I actually did read them. Besides the basic wash with a mild detergent and don't put the things in the dishwasher, they tell you to be careful and NOT to torque the blade cause they are so thin. I have the dimpled mighty santoku and I agree it is a workhorse of a knife. Gets alot of use.

As for chef's knife, I love my Pro Series 9 inch chef knife. ( yea I plunked down a lot of cash, but I do use it alot.) I was told by Harold at MAC that yea you can use the tip for some of the vegetables (rutabagas, turnips) but the clever is really good for the big stuff and things like bones. I just really like MAC. For the value they are first rate knives.

Edited July 12, 2007 by kristin_71 (log)

[Octaveman]

"Cleaver" is such a generic term...kinda like "knife". A cleaver is a Chinese chef's knife; not just something to hack away at bones. There are so many types that it will involve much more research to find the right one. I have a vegetable cleaver that is thinner than half of my gyuto's. Don't think you NEED a cleaver to bone a chicken. You don't. Then there's the learning curve on how to use one. It is akward if you're not used to it.

[Matt_T]

Thanks Kristin, I'd hate to break the tip off a nice knife, but the 10" chefs I use for attacking squash and the like is a sturdy and inexpensive Victorinox. The only Mac I have at the moment is the santuko, which I treat as directed. I sharpen the Vic to a less aggressive angle, 45 degrees, and it's held up ok under what should probably be called abuse (splitting chickens and dividing pork ribs, for example).

The reason I'm getting a gyuto is to get a santuko-like edge with the longer rocker and slicing stroke of the big knife, but I'll still keep the Vic in the block for heavy work.

MT

[Matt_T]

I have been asking about chicken prep, but another thought occurs....what about carving? Is it adviseable to carve a chicken or turkey with a 60 rockwell gyuto, where you're not trying to go through bones but will have to go through cooked joints? Or will I need to replace my old Calphalon carver (sold at last weekend's garage sale)?

edit:

And one more question for Bob or anyone else with experience: in an old thread I read that the Tojiro honesuki (and Hiromoto HC gyuto, another knife I'm interested in) have asymmetrical bevels. I believe you're talking about the larger bevels that extend well up the blade....the edge is still sharpened symmetrically, with equal angles on either side, right? I had a single-bevel Santuko (one of the cheapies from the Asian grocery store, still a decent knife) and never could sharpen it properly on stones. Finally I reground it as a double bevel and could put a decent edge on it that way, but I'd want to keep a better knife closer to "stock."

MT

Edited July 13, 2007 by Matt_T (log)

[Octaveman]

One should take the breast off the bird and carve on a board anyway. Your general boning knife can do that. As far as going through joints, I've found that a cooked bird is easy to take apart without any knife. I see no reason not to use your gyuto if you're not flagrantly grinding away at joints and clipping bones.

Assymetrical bevels are shaped so that the there is no actual bevel going all the way up to the spine but the sides of the blade are just off center. I tried to find a picture that illustrates this but I can't so I made a quick and dirty one. You can see that the sides of the knife are shifted off-center with the 70/30 illistration. This can be easily seen by looking at the heal of the knife from the back. This doesn't mean that you can't sharpen the edge 50/50 or whatever you'd like. This is just how the blade itself is made. When sharpening,I usually make front side more acute than the back very much like a 70/30 sharpening job but without laying the knife on the stone.

The bevel angles when sharpening somewhat magnified/exagerated. Just a bit more obtuse than the sides of the blade to maintain a thin razer edge. The front side sharpening bevel of the 70/30 is about 3-4mm from the edge. The backside is about 1-2mm from the edge. The Takeda is the only exception to this I make. I keep the original bevel angles which is about 2 cm from the edge. This keeps his knives super thin the way they were intended to be. Very hard to do without scuffing the blade but well worth the time and control it takes to do it.

These drawings are very rough but kind of give you an idea as to the different angles bladesmiths/manufacturers set and what I do to most of my my knives when I sharpen. I could go more acute on the backside but it might make the edge weak but again that depends on the knife and what it could handle. One could make any asymetrical edge 50/50 but then you'd be changing the characteristics of the blade. If you do, make sure the angles are very acute so you minimize the affect of the change.

Cheers,

Bob

[Matt_T]

Thanks Bob! That's your version of quick and dirty, huh?

I think I need to re-read your post and also Chad's sharpening symposium to get a better grip on the subject. Are there any tutorials out there on sharpening asymmetrical angles? IIRC Chad didn't get into that subject though I haven't read his article in months, maybe I just skipped over it.

Meanwhile I stopped by a couple of Asian shops in San Francisco today and got to see a few knives, including the full MAC line and also the Tojiro DP 270mm. The latter is a lot more knife than I realized....more heft and bulk than I expected since I've been using a 10" western Chef for a while and am used to the Japanese knives being so much lighter. Of course I'd never handled a >10" gyuto before...with hindsight of course harder steel doesn't mean lighter or otherwise magical. Fit and finish on the one I handled (the only Tojiro in the shop) were excellent, though the scales were more plasticky than I expected.

Another knife I handled was the MAC BK-80 8" "French Chef," in their standard 58 rockwell stainless. Neat shape, reminds me of a long Santuko more than the other gyutos, and nothing like an actual French knife. I probably should have bought that one instead of the widely reviewed SK-65 santuko, which is just a bit too short to rock very well even on garlic and shallots.

The only thing I actually bought was one of those little "fruit knives" with wooden sheath included....cute, sharp as heck and too cheap to pass at under 7 bucks. I'm holding off on the gyuto until I handle the Hiromotos at another shop that I expect to visit next week. Eventually I have to get to Japanwoodworker's shop, too....I just noticed they're within my range.

MT

Edited July 14, 2007 by Matt_T (log)

[Octaveman]

The only thing I can suggest because I was in the same exact frame of mind before I started sharpening on my own. Reading about it is one thing, seeing it done opens up a whole new world. This is why I highly suggest getting Korin's sharpening DVD. Not sure how much Korin sells it for but you can probably find it on ebay for $20. To get the sharpening angles of the asymtrical knife is to set it by putting two pennies down on the stone and hold that angle as you sharpen and three pennies for the back side. This becomes easily understood via the DVD. Talks about how to hold the knife and at what angle to the side of the stone and how to get various bevel angles. Very good video for the beginner.

Interesting that you thought the 270mm was heavy. Heavier than a 240mm, yes, but heavy in general? It most likely is due to the cladding in that it's got it in addition to maybe the slightly larger handle. I've never owend a DP so I couldn't comment on it directly. Many knives that don't have cladding and are made from one solid piece of metal are usually lighter. Thickness at the spine is also a factor. Actually, traditional hand-made knives like from Watanabe are pretty blade heavy compared to most. But they taper down real fast and are great cutters. Takeda is the exception in that they are made thin from the top down.

MAC has several different lines with some better than others. HRC 58 is too low IMHO for long duration of sharpness (Kurenga). HRC 60 would be the absolute lowest I would go.

I was going to say, since you live in or near frisco you gotta check out JWW. Lot's of great stuff. Bring your credit card!

[Matt_T]

Bought myself a 240mm Hiromoto HC today, at Hida Tool in Berkeley. I really want to try carbon steel and the feel of this knife is much more to my taste than the Tojiro DP I tried a few days ago. Besides being more rounded, as has been noted here, the handle on the Hiro is much more "woody" than the Tojiro, which I found quite slick. Also, the handle is smaller which I've found I prefer on knives where I pinch-grip the blade and wrap just three fingers around the handle.

I started with the 210mm, having liked the 8" Mac gyuto I'd handled a few days before, but the 240 won me over as soon as I gripped it. The balance of the 210 was very "neutral," as though the knife disappeared in my hand, while the 240 is just a bit more blade heavy andfelt great. I can't wait to cut with it! By the time I got home, though, my wonderful and talented wife already had dinner waiting. Maybe I should go out and buy some fruit to slice for dessert?

Fit and finish around the handle are excellent, but there are a few burrs at the base of the spine, which is quite sharp. I'll be working over these spots a bit with the fine rod from my Spyderco Sharpmaker tomorrow.

Price was within a couple of dollars of JCK, including shipping, and the service was excellent. The seller told me when it needs sharpening come back and they will teach me how to do it properly! Hoping to sell a nice set of waterstones, no doubt...but still.

Speaking of waterstones: I have gotten pretty good putting a variety of different angles on other knives with the Sharpmaker and its ceramic rods. Any reason not to use it with the carbon steel Hiro? I was thinking I could get a 70/30 bevel pretty consistently by holding the blade at an angle while it work it in the Sharpmaker with the rods in the 30 degree setting. I'd still get a 30 degree total included angle, but instead of 15d/15d I could get 10d/20d. Any reason not to use the Sharpmaker as a shortcut/economy measure for the rougher grits even if I obtain and learn how to use a fine waterstone for final polish? Best of both worlds?

About the Tojiro DP 270: I didn't find it heavy in an absolute sense, compared to a Wusthof Classic or something, but it was heavier than I expected....my previous experience with Japanese knives being limited to 6.5" Santukos and a very slender discount-store slicer. Of course I should have expected a longer, deeper knife to be much heavier, but despite all my internet shopping that just did not compute. Glad I had the chance to shop in person.

MT

Edited July 19, 2007 by Matt_T (log)

[Octaveman]

That's a great knife, Matt. I didn't realize you were in the market for a carbon blade. If the kanji is engraved then you got some of the last ones as they print them now. I had that knife for a good while and enjoyed it a lot. Easy to sharpen and stayed sharp for a good while.

Yeah, in the big picture, the DP is not heavy but when you compare to 4 ounce santoku's or your expectations, it's going to feel heavy. The Hattori HD was my first gyuto and I thought that was heavy too. Turned out to be average. What was Hidatool like in the shop? Have more stuff than what was on the website? The Hiromoto AS is awesome...that knife rocks.

[Matt_T]

Yes, the Kanji is engraved....maybe I'll go back for a matching petty before they sell through the old style.

Hida Tool is a small shop, I'd guess the entire space up front is 12x25 feet. But it's stacked to the gills (very neatly!) with cool edged tools. A bigger assortment than at Soko hardware in SF, the only other Japanese hardware store I'm familiar with.

Kitchen cutlery only takes up maybe three feet of linear shelf space (by 7 feet high) but there is a big selection. I didn't look too closely either in the shop or on the web at makers I wasn't familiar with, so can't say for sure if there was more or less selection - I'd guess about the same. They do stock the Hiromoto AS line and I was tempted. I'll probably get an AS once I decide what style and size I really want, but I thought the softer and high-value HC made more sense as a first gyuto and first carbon blade.

I worked on those burrs this morning. They were tiny, something felt rather than seen, and I thought a few passes with the fine Spyderco rod would knock them down. But it took a good while with the coarse rod to take off the burrs and soften the corners just the slightest - this is a much harder steel than I'm used to! When I get home I'm going to use my diamond EZ Lap to round off the spine a bit more.

On another front, I'd been thinking of taking advantage of the Mac double-bevelled deba on sale at Korin. But then I realized I have one already, sort of: one of the first "good" knives I thought I bought a few years ago was a 7" Calphalon Contemporary Santuko. It's big and heavy, as thick along the spine as my chef's knife. When I realized it was not a very good representation of a santuko I brought it to our firehouse where cutlery sees some rough treatment. Today I looked at it and except for the edge it's still in good shape, despite a year or two bouncing around in the sink, misuse as a meat cleaver, and scores of trips through the dishwasher. So I guess I can endorse Calphalon's durability! But anyway I think to myself, here I have an approximately deba-shaped knife in soft steel that doesn't seem to care if it's asked to split chickens or cleave ribs. A little while on the Spyderco and Hey, Presto! it's got a decent 40 degree edge again. It's coming back home with me to do some heavy work, maybe then I'll be able to keep a better edge of my chef's knife.

MT

[Matt_T]

Yesterday I got to handle (in a shop) a honesuki that hasn't gotten much attention here: The MAC BON-60: MAC Knife Page

This is in their "Japanese" series, and is single-beveled. It's a heavy knife, I'd guess 3mm spine at the bolster, and feels like a little pointed cleaver (which I guess it is!) The point is clipped a bit, which I think makes it a little stronger than some honesuki's I've seen at Korin that have almost needle points. Fit and finish were excellent.

I believe MAC's Japanese series uses their original stainless alloy, which they say is hardened to 58 rockwell. That's lower than a lot of general use knives discussed here but maybe not a bad choice for a boning knife/light cleaver? Bob, you'd spec no lower than 60 even for this application?

List price is $90 but the seller where I saw it (Kamei on Clement St in San Francisco) had it tagged at $67.50. I didn't buy as my budget will probably keep me away from such specialized tools for a while, but thought it deserved a mention.

The same dealer also had the unusual CL-6 in Mac's Original series, a double-beveled 6.5" "medium cleaver" in the triangular pattern of a honesuki, but with a curved tip. I'd think a point would be desireable on a boning knife, no? If not, the CL-6 might be a deal at $47, with no bolster and a little lighter construction, but also 1/2" more length than the BON-60 or most more tradition honesukis. I guess it wouldn't be too hard to grind the back of the curved tip into a clip point....

MT

Edited July 24, 2007 by Matt_T (log)

[Octaveman]

Bob, you'd spec no lower than 60 even for this application?

Funny thing, hardness levels. Until the actual knife is destroyed and tested you'll never know with 100% certainly how hard it is. I've even seen the same knife rated differently at various retailers so who are you going to believe? I'm not so certain I can even trust what is stated at the manfuacturers website. Could be a typo, who knows for sure. At least 58 would be considered conservative so you know they're not overstating hardness.

Anyway, assuming it really is 58, it won't chip on you. If you hit a bone, the edge may fold but it won't chip. How low you go is personal preference and 60 would be as low as I go even for this. What you gain in those few points could be the difference in sharpening it every week or every month. A chip can be left alone, a fold in your edge is harder to ignore. But then again, it's a boning knife. I don't know...with all the better stuff out there I would choose something else.

After many no-holding-back uses of my deba, it's never chipped or folded. Is it really HRC 60? I have no idea. But I do know it's held up to ribs, carteledge and back bones. I guess the only way to find out about the MAC is to buy it, use it and keep it if it works out or sell it if it doesn't. Don't baby it. A knife is meant to be used so if you get it put it to the test.

BTW, those Hattori FH knives on JCK.com? The honesuki will be ready late this year. Good to know for budget planning since you're not in the market right now anyway.

BTW, how long is MAC's honesuki you looked at? The spine thickness is about right. I personally feel 160-165mm is a great length for chickens. The average 150mm of most honesuki's are just a tad small and I like the additional length.

Edited July 25, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[Matt_T]

I didn't measure but the Bon-60 is listed as 6" and the CL-6 is 6.5".

The Hattori FH series is beautiful, not too early to make a list for Santa I guess....timing might be perfect.

MT