[Sneakeater]

Another difference is that you can get IN to Degustation.

(Seriously, though, aside from the big difference oakapple noted, isn't the difference that Wesley Genovart cooks at Degustation and Peter Serpico cooks here? I mean, the whole concept doesn't have to be unique. Just the food.)

[Nathan]

well, Reichl's take is now up at Gourmet (linked too by Eater)...she certainly seems to think so.

at least two more egullet members are dining there tomorrow night (alas, I am not among them). and at least 4 already have.

[Sneakeater]

Actually, they got bumped to Sunday.

[oakapple]

Sneakeater, on Mar 4 2008, 11:10 AM, said:

(Seriously, though, aside from the big difference oakapple noted, isn't the difference that Wesley Genovart cooks at Degustation and Peter Serpico cooks here?  I mean, the whole concept doesn't have to be unique.  Just the food.)

Well...yeah, it's like saying that Gramercy Tavern and Irving Mill are the identical concept, but for the small detail that GT is one of the finest restaurants in the country, and Irving Mill is not.

I'm not suggesting that Ko will be another Gramercy Tavern—that remains to be proved—only that it could be.

[donbert]

Fat Guy, on Mar 4 2008, 01:07 PM, said:

As far as I can tell at least three people posting here have dined at Momofuku Ko. So, is the food any good?

Yes.

[Fat Guy]

So, what makes it good? Adjusting for previews by assuming it will get a little better, is it going to be better than what I can get at Momofuku Sssam Bar if I order the tasting menu there? Or does Ssam Bar's food already represent the pinnacle of what the Chang organization can create?

[ulterior epicure]

Swicks, on Feb 12 2008, 12:37 PM, said:

Only 14 seats?  wow...good luck eating there anytime soon.  Sounds vaguely familiar to what Schwa in Chicago was like.

Except schwa had twice as many seats. minibar in D.C. has six.

[ulterior epicure]

I have heard from multiple sources (including what Reichl reported) that the poached egg dish was served with osetra caviar. I have also heard from one source that it was served with hackleback. There are a number of explanations for this:

1. They are serving different caviar to different diners, or

2. They are misleading (whether purposely or not, I don't know) some of the diners, or

3. They're not serving osetra or hackleback and are deceiving (whether purposely or not, I don't know) all (highly unlikely).

Anyone care to shed any light?

[oakapple]

Fat Guy, on Mar 4 2008, 01:28 PM, said:

Adjusting for previews by assuming it will get a little better, is it going to be better than what I can get at Momofuku Sssam Bar if I order the tasting menu there?

I haven't been there yet, but from the photos and various descriptions it certainly looks like Ko is aiming for a higher standard than Ssam Bar.

[Swicks]

oakapple, on Mar 4 2008, 02:18 PM, said:

Fat Guy, on Mar 4 2008, 01:28 PM, said:

Adjusting for previews by assuming it will get a little better, is it going to be better than what I can get at Momofuku Sssam Bar if I order the tasting menu there?

I haven't been there yet, but from the photos and various descriptions it certainly looks like Ko is aiming for a higher standard than Ssam Bar.

Looks like its in a similar vein but much more refined (based solely on reports and pictures)

[Fat Guy]

That's not the conclusion I reached looking at the photos. Those dishes all looked entirely within the capabilities of the Ssam Bar kitchen (indeed, as noted above, variants of several of these dishes have been served at Ssam Bar over the past few months). Maybe the portions in the Ko photos are smaller and the plate compositions slightly more precise, but that's about it.

I'm looking forward to trying the food at Ko one of these days, but the concept to me seems devolutionary. The brilliance of Ssam Bar is that it is a category-defining restaurant that merges haute and rustic in such an shamelessly postmodern manner that several of us feel strongly that it has created a paradigm shift in the restaurant universe. I've been as enthusiastic about the food at Ssam Bar and Noodle Bar as just about anybody, and have made the case that Ssam Bar is the best restaurant in New York right now, so I'm not saying that it would be a bad thing for the Chang team not to be able to cook food any better than what they're serving at Ssam Bar. It's already fantastic. But it won't get better by virtue of being put on smaller plates with dollops of caviar. And the main problem is that when you take Ssam Bar's food and you put it in this highly choreographed degustation format you've put the food back into a familiar context (you can get the whole restaurant-as-sushi-bar experience lots of places now) that I fear could ultimately be out of context to the Momofuku experience. Unless there's something unique about Ko that hasn't yet been explained, it seems to me that Chang has gone from innovator to imitator here.

[oakapple]

Fat Guy, on Mar 5 2008, 12:17 AM, said:

The brilliance of Ssam Bar is that it is a category-defining restaurant that merges haute and rustic in such an shamelessly postmodern manner that several of us feel strongly that it has created a paradigm shift in the restaurant universe.... (snip) And the main problem is that when you take Ssam Bar's food and you put it in this highly choreographed degustation format you've put the food back into a familiar context (you can get the whole restaurant-as-sushi-bar experience lots of places now) that I fear could ultimately be out of context to the Momofuku experience.

It's for precisely this reason that I was skeptical that any kind of paradigm shift had taken place. Ssam Bar could very well have been a one-off, and now Chang is doing something much closer to conventional.

Quote

Unless there's something unique about Ko that hasn't yet been explained, it seems to me that Chang has gone from innovator to imitator here.

It may also be that he just doesn't have another Big Idea like that in his quiver. To be fair, how often do such ideas come along?

[robert40]

Could it be his original "Big Idea" was percieved as such by the dining public more then it was by Chang himself.

[oakapple]

robert40, on Mar 5 2008, 06:50 AM, said:

Could it be his original "Big Idea" was percieved as such by the dining public more then it was by Chang himself.

I think Chang knew he was pushing the edge of the envelope. He couldn't possibly have envisioned the kind of public reaction that he got.

[Nathan]

well Ssam Bar was a happy accident. that's simply it's history.

I had a conversation about a year ago which implied that Ko (or something like it) was conceived awhile ago.

I'm hopeful that it's Ssam Bar on steroids. the legitimate concern is that it's "merely" Ssam Bar with reservations and a required tasting menu.

[spaetzle_maker]

I thought the food at Ko was exquisite. I do agree that this food is within the reach of Ssam Bar, but both restaurants are functioning within vastly different parameters. The fact that Ko will have only 8 or so dishes on the menu a night will allow for a certain level of quality and attention to detail that may not be possible at restaurants with a much larger menu, serving 5 times as many diners. I think the comparison to Degustation is apt in terms of Ko's atmosphere. The plating style is slightly similar but definitely not the same. But, obviously the flavor profile is different and that's a huge difference. While I love Degustation (has anyone had that soft-scrambled duck egg? Oh. My. God.) , so far I think the food at Ko has more of a mind-blowing quality.

As far as the osetra/hackleback question: I'm the person asserting it was hackleback. This is based on how the dish was described when it was put down before me. I could not have misheard "hackleback" if "osetra" was said. But really, I don't see how it matters anyway. The worthiness of this restaurant is not determined by the specific variety of a dollop of caviar on one dish. In fact, I can't decide which component of that particular dish I liked the most: was it the luxurious, coddled egg? The pudding-like soubise onions? The tiny potato chips that didn't make a mess of crumbs or get stuck in the corners of my mouth? And yeah - that caviar was pretty darn nice, but my point is that every component of that dish was equally worthy of praise. There were about 80 other mouthfuls of incredible food in that meal besides the one dollop of caviar. Just ask Sneakeater - I walked 4 miles home after that dinner and I couldn't stop telling him about the shaved fois with lychee and pinenut brittle, or the fried apple pie! There's a lot of good stuff going on at Ko aside from caviar.

Edit: I didn't make sneakeater walk with me. I'm not cruel like that. I was talking to him on the phone.

This post has been edited by spaetzle_maker: 05 March 2008 - 11:58 AM

[Jesikka]

My sense of Ko is that it's there for branding purposes, as well as serving more refined food (which is not necessarily better or worse than Ssam Bar). They have obviously been testing some of those dishes at Ssam Bar over the past 6 months, but as far as I know none have been on the menu and they haven't been offering them universally.

If they're serving four star food with a four person staff, no telephone, no tablecloths and 14 individuals sitting on stools, that would seem quite unique to me.

I absolutely cannot wait to taste the food on Sunday.

[Fat Guy]

Jesikka, on Mar 5 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

If they're serving four star food with a four person staff, no telephone, no tablecloths and 14 individuals sitting on stools, that would seem quite unique to me.

Those all seem like pretty minor variants on the counter-dining permutations currently available in New York (Degustation, Atelier, etc.) and elsewhere (e.g., Minibar in Washington, DC).

[Jesikka]

Fat Guy, on Mar 5 2008, 01:19 PM, said:

Jesikka, on Mar 5 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

If they're serving four star food with a four person staff, no telephone, no tablecloths and 14 individuals sitting on stools, that would seem quite unique to me.

Those all seem like pretty minor variants on the counter-dining permutations currently available in New York (Degustation, Atelier, etc.) and elsewhere (e.g., Minibar in Washington, DC).

I don't think Degustation is serving haute cuisine. Atelier has a LOT more seats than Ko and a much more traditional service model. I've never managed to make it to Minibar, so I don't know much about it.

I never bought into this whole new paradigm thing, so I'm not really speaking to that. I do think that Momofuku style korean influenced haute cuisine of four star level would be speaking in a very different voice than anything we've seen in NY.

It remains to be seen whether this is four star food, but I presume that's the aim.

[Fat Guy]

My feeling is that you can already get "Momofuku style korean influenced haute cuisine of four star level," at Momofuku Ssam Bar. That is precisely the Momofuku miracle. But hey, maybe the food is even better at Ko. We'll see.

I'll stay away from new-paradigm discussion on this topic since we have a topic dedicated to that.

[Jesikka]

Fat Guy, on Mar 5 2008, 01:37 PM, said:

My feeling is that you can already get "Momofuku style korean influenced haute cuisine of four star level," at Momofuku Ssam Bar. That is precisely the Momofuku miracle. But hey, maybe the food is even better at Ko. We'll see.

I'll stay away from new-paradigm discussion on this topic since we have a topic dedicated to that.

As good as the food at Ssam is, I just don't think it's four star food. Not because of tastiness, but because of the level of refinement. I don't think it's trying to be. It's L'Ami Jean to L'Arpege or something. In my mind it's not a question of better but of style, plating, etc. Some of the dishes at Ssam could clearly be reworked as four star dishes and some might fit right into a menu, but it's just not in that style/method overall. It has nothing to do with quality (though it might have a touch to do with haute ingredients).

This is like a fight that Nathan and I have about Sripraphai where he argues that it's a three star restaurant because there are three star dishes on it. I have no doubt that Tipmanee can cook three star food, but that doesn't make Sripraphai a three star restaurant.

Anyway, this doesn't need to be a star discussion either. I'll post my thoughts on the food after Sunday.

[ulterior epicure]

Jesikka, on Mar 5 2008, 12:45 PM, said:

Fat Guy, on Mar 5 2008, 01:37 PM, said:

My feeling is that you can already get "Momofuku style korean influenced haute cuisine of four star level," at Momofuku Ssam Bar. That is precisely the Momofuku miracle. But hey, maybe the food is even better at Ko. We'll see.

I'll stay away from new-paradigm discussion on this topic since we have a topic dedicated to that.

As good as the food at Ssam is, I just don't think it's four star food. Not because of tastiness, but because of the level of refinement. I don't think it's trying to be. It's L'Ami Jean to L'Arpege or something. In my mind it's not a question of better but of style, plating, etc. Some of the dishes at Ssam could clearly be reworked as four star dishes and some might fit right into a menu, but it's just not in that style/method overall. It has nothing to do with quality (though it might have a touch to do with haute ingredients).

This is like a fight that Nathan and I have about Sripraphai where he argues that it's a three star restaurant because there are three star dishes on it. I have no doubt that Tipmanee can cook three star food, but that doesn't make Sripraphai a three star restaurant.

Anyway, this doesn't need to be a star discussion either. I'll post my thoughts on the food after Sunday.

Well, if there's a critic who might be willing to push that kind of (4-star for Ko) precedent, it would be Bruni.

[oakapple]

Fat Guy, on Mar 5 2008, 10:37 AM, said:

My feeling is that you can already get "Momofuku style korean influenced haute cuisine of four star level," at Momofuku Ssam Bar. That is precisely the Momofuku miracle.

It may well be that if you string together a meal with Ssam Bar's best offerings at any given time, and ignore the service and ambiance issues, perhaps it is a four-star experience (though I have never been persuaded of that).

But there's an awful lot on the menu there that, however tasty it may be, isn't four-star food by any rational measure. And I do believe that for a restaurant to get four stars, there needs to be a high probability that you'll have a four-star experience practically no matter what you order.

I mean, there are only 5 four-star restaurants in New York. I'm sure there are plenty of others that, if you order right, are capable putting out a meal better than the average at Jean Georges. But the measure of a restaurant is the overall level of everything they serve, not merely the best handful of things that they serve.

So it would seem to me that, unless Chang is crazy, he ought to be able to increase the "average" significantly by serving only one set menu to 14 people at a time.

[donbert]

First a couple corrections:

1.) Yes, it is in fact Hackleback and not Ostera.
2.) The onions on the same dish were "soubise" not "sous-vide".

I think that spaetzle_maker's assessment of Ko is the most on point. While it's going to be impossible for folks to stop comparing Ko to Ssam Bar it is as useless a comparison as the Noodle Bar vs Ssam Bar debate. Each of the 3 Momofukus have their own vision that they execute with the same level of skill, enthusiasm, and attention to detail. If you're expecting Ko to be "Ssam Bar on steroids" you will be as disappointed as you would be were you to go to Ssam Bar expecting it to be Noodle Bar on steroids. (Besides does Ssam Bar really need steroids?)

As far as stars or new paradigms are concerned I think that they just distract you from the food. The only thing stars have done for me is made it harder to get into places and the day I start going restaurants looking for new paradigms someone needs to put me out of my misery.

This post has been edited by donbert: 05 March 2008 - 11:40 AM

[spaetzle_maker]

donbert, on Mar 5 2008, 02:40 PM, said:

First a couple corrections:
2.) The onions on the same dish were "soubise" not "sous-vide".

Thanks Donbert! Looked "soubise" up on wikipedia and that term definitely is making more sense with regards to the onions than "sous-vide"! :)

[donbert]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is how great the wine/sake pairing was. I wish I had taken note of what they were pouring because they had obviously taken the same great care in selecting the wines and sakes as they did preparing the food. Each pairing worked on multiple levels with the individual components and each dish as a whole.

If I had to sum up the whole Ko experience in a single word it would be Gestalt.

[oakapple]

Ed Levine is on board.

[ulterior epicure]

oakapple, on Mar 5 2008, 12:55 PM, said:

But there's an awful lot on the menu there that, however tasty it may be, isn't four-star food by any rational measure. And I do believe that for a restaurant to get four stars, there needs to be a high probability that you'll have a four-star experience practically no matter what you order.

I would agree with this.

[ulterior epicure]

So, the hardest table in town to get? I'll let you decide: Eater reveals the online reservation interface.

It looks like they're staggering by 15 minute increments. So, if you're the first (or last) party, presumably, you have a small window of time where the staff is entirely devoted to you...

[Dave H]

The original idea, per the Grub Street post announcing the late-night menu at Ssam Bar, seems to have been to do a single-seating, 4-person chef's table at SB. And you thought Ko reservations are going to be difficult!

(The point is the idea has been kicking around for at least as long as Ssam Bar's been open; it's the success of the former-late-night menu that wasn't part of the original plan.)