47 replies to this topic

[Smithy]

Last night I was working on a fatta recipe and got around to the tahina sauce. It called for vinegar. Err.. what type of vinegar? My cookbook doesn't say. After some thought I eliminated apple cider vinegar (don't remember seeing apples in Egypt), wine vinegar of either color (although this seemed a possibility), and standard white vinegar (yech) and went with cane vinegar. Given the importance of sugar cane in Egypt, this seemed the most likely type of vinegar they'd use, but I wish I'd checked recently. Does anyone know?

Once again I marveled at and lusted after the lemons. They aren't Meyer lemons, and they aren't our standard Eureka lemons. They're quite a bit sweeter than our Eurekas but lack the floral quality of the Meyers, and they're smaller than either. (I can get a reasonable facsimile of the juice by blending Meyer and Eureka juices, but it still isn't the same.) I think they're just characterized as "limoon baladi" (country lemons) by the vendors, but don't quote me on that. I'd love to know (a) what variety lemon is grown there, and (b) whether that variety is grown in the U.S.A. somewhere. Can anyone help me?

[Philanthrophobe]

I have questions for your questions!

I had no idea what fatta was so I looked it up in Claudia Roden's The New Book of Middle Eastern Food and found a few types, and then I went through it looking for tahina sauces--and none of the recipes call for vinegar. In fact, all of the tahina sauces call for lemon juice when incorporating an acid.

What sort of fatta are you making? They sound wonderful!

Also, I second the lemon question.

And are there any particularly good Egyptian cookbooks?

[scubadoo97]

I would also think lemon juice.

[Smithy]

I have questions for your questions!

I had no idea what fatta was so I looked it up in Claudia Roden's The New Book of Middle Eastern Food and found a few types, and then I went through it looking for tahina sauces--and none of the recipes call for vinegar. In fact, all of the tahina sauces call for lemon juice when incorporating an acid.

What sort of fatta are you making? They sound wonderful!

Also, I second the lemon question.

And are there any particularly good Egyptian cookbooks?

This particular recipe was one of two called "fatta shamy". As I understand it, the name comes from the holiday when it's most likely to be made. Considering the amount of work that went into it (I am not an efficient cook) I can see why it's more of a holiday or party meal! Anyway, both fatta shamy recipes involved chicken (the meat and the broth). Elsewhere in the cookbook is another fatta recipe that calls for beef, but I haven't tried that one yet.

The tahina sauce was a mixture of tahina, lemon juice, vinegar, and yogurt, with a seasoning of cumin and salt, with water to thin if necessary. (It wasn't, since my tahina was pretty runny.) I may be calling the sauce by the wrong name, since it also included yogurt, but I needed to call it something for the purposes of this post.

So far I have two specifically Egyptian cookbooks that I like. The one I was using last night is called "Tastes of Egypt", or maybe it's "Flavors of Egypt", and it's a lovely and fairly low-production-cost book put together using recipes from women all over the country. Think of a very large locally-produced book from your favorite church group, and you'll have the idea of the format. The funds went to help the women and children of the villages, as I recall. I got it at the American University in Cairo (AUC). The book promises a second edition, but I haven't been able to locate it. If you want more information I'll post the production info when I get a chance to look at the book again. The other Egyptian cookbook I have is one I just picked up: "Egyptian Cooking, the English edition". (The same book is available in French, German and who knows what other languages.) I think it may be an AUC production, but I'd have to look again to be sure. I picked it up because it had recipes the other book didn't have, and had photos to boot. No vocabulary, though. "Tastes of Egypt" has a fairly detailed vocabulary list with actual spellings as well as phonetic spellings, both in Arabic and English.

Edited to add: the title of the book is Flavors of Egypt from city and country kitchens, by Susan Torgersen. It may be out of print.

Edited by Smithy, 07 February 2006 - 02:19 PM.

[FoodMan]

oooh, vinegar in Tahina sauce saounds very odd to me. Only lemon juice goes in it. But for all I know things in Egypt could be different.

[Smithy]

oooh, vinegar in Tahina sauce saounds very odd to me. Only lemon juice goes in it. But for all I know things in Egypt could be different.

Well, keep in mind that this is a mixture of tahina and yogurt for the fatta recipe, so I may have used the wrong turn. Otherwises - perhaps this is evidence of unique Egyptian cuisine? I don't know. None of my other cookbooks - except the Claudia Roden book mentioned above - has any fatta recipes. In the Egyptian book from which I was cooking, both fatta shamy recipes used vinegar in addition to lemon in the tahina/yogurt sauce. The other fatta recipe, which uses beef, did not - but it added tomato sauce.

So, broadening the question a bit: what type(s) of vinegar would be likely to be used in Egypt? What about in the Maghreb? The Mashreq?

I'd still like to know what variety of lemon is grown in Egypt. So far I haven't found any definitive answer online. I'm sure some horticulturists has figured it out, but I don't know where to look.

[anzu]

I just looked up Egyptian Cooking: A Practical Guide by Samia Abdennour (also American University in Cairo Press).

Her tahina also has vinegar in it.

So then I did a quick internet search for Egyptian tahina recipes. They all mentioned vinegar. Usually this was just a little vinegar, with the main souring agent being lemon juice.

Most simply gave 'vinegar' as the ingredient with being more specific. But when a vinegar type was actually mentioned the most frequent was white vinegar, white wine vinegar appeared a few times, and red wine vinegar was mentioned once.

[archestratus]

oooh, vinegar in Tahina sauce saounds very odd to me. Only lemon juice goes in it. But for all I know things in Egypt could be different.

Well, keep in mind that this is a mixture of tahina and yogurt for the fatta recipe, so I may have used the wrong turn. Otherwises - perhaps this is evidence of unique Egyptian cuisine? I don't know. None of my other cookbooks - except the Claudia Roden book mentioned above - has any fatta recipes. In the Egyptian book from which I was cooking, both fatta shamy recipes used vinegar in addition to lemon in the tahina/yogurt sauce. The other fatta recipe, which uses beef, did not - but it added tomato sauce.

So, broadening the question a bit: what type(s) of vinegar would be likely to be used in Egypt? What about in the Maghreb? The Mashreq?

I'd still like to know what variety of lemon is grown in Egypt. So far I haven't found any definitive answer online. I'm sure some horticulturists has figured it out, but I don't know where to look.

The lemon cultivar you are referring to is known as the daq lemon (about the size of a golf ball). Fatta shamy means either "Syrian fatta" or "sun fatta." As far as vinegar goes in the Middle East, it would be either red or white, but lemon juice would be far more common for acidity.

[Smithy]

I just looked up Egyptian Cooking: A Practical Guide by Samia Abdennour (also American University in Cairo Press).

Her tahina also has vinegar in it.

So then I did a quick internet search for Egyptian tahina recipes. They all mentioned vinegar. Usually this was just a little vinegar, with the main souring agent being lemon juice.

Most simply gave 'vinegar' as the ingredient with being more specific. But when a vinegar type was actually mentioned the most frequent was white vinegar, white wine vinegar appeared a few times, and red wine vinegar was mentioned once.

So perhaps vinegar in tahina sauce is a particularly Egyptian twist. I'll have to ask my teacher how she makes it. I almost picked up one of both of Ms. Abdennour's books last week. Now I wish I had, in addition to the one I brought home. Heck, what's another couple of books?

The lemon cultivar you are referring to is known as the daq lemon (about the size of a golf ball).  Fatta shamy means either "Syrian fatta" or "sun fatta."  As far as vinegar goes in the Middle East, it would be either red or white, but lemon juice would be far more common for acidity.

Thank you for that information. Your description of the lemon's size is spot-on. Now I have a way to search for them in this country. As much as I love our standard lemons and Meyer lemons, I'd like to find a source of the daq lemons as well.

My cookbook says that fatta shamy is made to celebrate "Sham El Nessim, the holiday which welcomes in spring", so I'm thinking that in this case the word "shamy" refers to the sun.

[Behemoth]

My cookbook says that fatta shamy is made to celebrate "Sham El Nessim, the holiday which welcomes in spring", so I'm thinking that in this case the word "shamy" refers to the sun.

I'm afraid I have to disagree, but that name is really cute. First time I've heard of the dish, but "sham-el-nasim" literally means smelling the breeze. It is a common term for taking a stroll on a nice day. Shamy (not having seen the arabic, and assuming this is the correct origin) would then probably refer to the "smelling" part of the phrase.

Sun as you probably know is "Shams", but always appears with the "s" on the end.

Naseem/nasim/neseem means breeze, and is also a very nice boy's name, IMVHO.

Edited by Behemoth, 09 February 2006 - 08:54 PM.

[Smithy]

My cookbook says that fatta shamy is made to celebrate "Sham El Nessim, the holiday which welcomes in spring", so I'm thinking that in this case the word "shamy" refers to the sun.

I'm afraid I have to disagree, but that name is really cute. First time I've heard of the dish, but "sham-el-nasim" literally means smelling the breeze. It is a common term for taking a stroll on a nice day. Shamy (not having seen the arabic, and assuming this is the correct origin) would then probably refer to the "smelling" part of the phrase.

Sun as you probably know is "Shams", but always appears with the "s" on the end.

Naseem/nasim/neseem means breeze, and is also a very nice boy's name, IMVHO.

I do like the sound of that as a boy's name!

I'm just repeating what the cookbook writer said in her preface to the recipe, but of course she might have misunderstood. I did wonder about the lack of an 's' at the end of shams, but since I'm a bare beginner I figured I was missing something about converting from a noun to an adjective. The cookbook only gives Arabic for ingredients, in an appendix, so I don't know how that dish would be written either. Something else to ask my teacher!

Thanks for the information.

Edited to add: Thanks too for the tip on Sham el Nessim. I think we'll have to instigate this holiday around our house! Without the smelly fish, though. I've smelled it. I'll stick to fatta.

Edited by Smithy, 10 February 2006 - 11:09 AM.

[Behemoth]

It's interesting about the holiday, I had never heard of it prior to this. I should correct my statement above by saying "sham el- hawa/sham el-nassim" in Lebanon at least would be understood as going out for a breath of fresh air. There are so many differences between the levant and egypt it is really kind of amazing to me sometimes. Maybe it is because as kids we were always fed the arab unity line (after all several countries share the egyptian flag) it is always a little weird when you realize these countries are really much less similar than you grew uo thinking. Anyway...

I would have to look at the name as it is written in arabic to even presume to think I knew what it referred to. It's always funny when I read middle eastern news in arabic newspapers -- I always have this moment when I think, oh that's what the Times was referring to!

[archestratus]

Oh, this is a little more interesting. It now sounds like fatta shams is indeed made for this holiday known as shamm al-nasim, which means literally "to breathe the breeze." It is in celebration of the winds that whip up in the spring. Another food popular for this holiday is fasikh a small salted fermented fish with a very strong odor popular in Egypt. Interestingly, this holiday of shamm al-nasim is a pagan holiday not a Muslim holiday and therefore not encouraged by clerics.

[Nicolai]

In order to cut through all the guesses on this thread. Please note the following.

Fattah is a dish available in two countries namely Egypt and Syria.

The Egyptian version is stock based around tomatoes and flat Arabic bread while the Syrian is Yoghurt and bread based.

If your recipe is called Fattah Shamy. Then this has nothing to do with the word Sham=Smell or Shams=Sun but Shamy=Levant=Damascus.

The Fattah Shamy or Shamyah i.e. coming from Bilad al Sham, is a very famous local dish and is referred to in Damascuss as Tess'eeyeh.

In case your recipe is yoghurt based then it is referring to the Syrian Shami version.

Now stating that the Egyptians eat this dish as a Sham-el-Nessim speciality is risible and the author must have went on a great leap of faith to come up with this explanation. The Sham-el-Nessim celebration is to eat Fessikh + Green onions.

It is also important to correct a fallacy that Sham-el-Nessim is a "pagan holiday" as it is in fact a Coptic holiday linked to the Coptic Easter and derived from the Pharaonic times. In order to avoid politico-religious connotations, it is referred to as an Egyptian celebration of Spring.

I would be curious to know who is the author of the recipe and it would be helpful if you can post the recipe here.

[Smithy]

Well, perhaps I misunderstood what the cookbook writer said in her introduction to one of the two fatta shamy recipes. She wrote, "This recipe was given to me by two charming sisters at a party to celebrate Sham El Nessim, the holiday which welcomes in spring." I assumed that meant the recipe was especially for Sham El Nessim, but it really didn't say that, now, did it? It said the *party* was for Sham el Nessim. The other fatta shamy recipe doesn't have an introduction. Both fatta shamy recipes use chicken, chicken bouillion, onion, garlic, shamy bread, yogurt, and vinegar. From there they diverge: one uses rice, the other doesn't; one uses tahina and the other considers it optional; and so forth. You asked who gave the recipes. The two charming sisters at the party were Fifi El Sherif and Hoda Auf. The other fatta shamy recipe is credited to Hella Hashem.

Another recipe in this cookbook is simply called fatta. The introduction says, "Fatta is one of the most popular national dishes of Egypt. It is eaten on every important occasion such as Big Bairam, Religious feasts, weddings, etc." This fatta recipe, provided by Magda Barakat, calls for meat (veal, beef or lamb) OR chicken; it uses rice with broth; it uses Baladi breads (big pita); and it uses a garlic sauce with tomato. There is no yogurt or tahina in this particular recipe.

I don't feel right reproducing the recipes, since the book is copyrighted. The book itself is noted above in my earlier post.

[Behemoth]

Smithy, as you no doubt already know it's hard even for native speakers to tell what's what when one is dealing with a transliteration. For example, my first thought was Damascus-style, but since fatteh is female and shamy is male it didn't sound quite right -- "fatteh of some guy from Damasus" -- and there was also the unusual use of vinegar. So then the assumption is either well they meant fatteh shamieh (damascus-style fatteh) or fettet-el-shammeh, which would make sense in reference to the holiday even if it was something I'd never heard of. We need to get arabic keyboards, I am really jealous of the asian threads' use of characters.

So -- did it taste good? I've never had fatteh with vinegar, or one without yogurt! (Then again, we all remember the cactus debacle so what do I know )

Edited by Behemoth, 17 February 2006 - 07:38 PM.

[Nicolai]

Smithy, as you no doubt already know it's hard even for native speakers to tell what's what when one is dealing with a transliteration. For example, my first thought was Damascus-style, but since fatteh is female and shamy is male it didn't sound quite right -- "fatteh of some guy from Damasus" -- and there was also the unusual use of vinegar. So then the assumption is either well they meant fatteh shamieh (damascus-style fatteh) or fettet-el-shammeh, which would make sense in reference to the holiday even if it was something I'd never heard of. We need to get arabic keyboards, I am really jealous of the asian threads' use of characters.

So -- did it taste good? I've never had fatteh with vinegar, or one without yogurt! (Then again, we all remember the cactus debacle so what do I know )

I am at loss trying to understand your position.

There is no transliteration in Fattah Shamy. It is simply what the dish is called and it means the Damascus version of Fatteh which is as I said earlier called Tess'eeyeh.

There seem to be some inner desire to profess and peddle knowledge where there is none.
You cannot take a dish name and extrapolate the meaning if you do not know it.
What is a Tcharkassyah? What is a Kebbe Hileh? What is Assabeih el Sett? What is a Modamameh? What is Yabrak? and so on. They not necessarily have relation with their meaning but are the name of dishes in different countries/areas.

Whether some author decides to attribute a name to a dish or a dish to a country or to an event, his opinion does not make his statement any more truthful.
Time and time again we see books and recipes and experts making claims that are simply wrong and for reasons of etiquette or convenience, we avoid to address the issue.

In my personal opinion, it is very wrong to extrapolate a dish name and comment on it as you open yourself to embarrassing position to say the least. I would go even further and avoid commenting how a dish should taste in case it is the first time you do so as you do not have a palate reference for this dish.

If I am to taste a dish from a land far away. All I can say that to my taste it is a nice or not so nice dish but I cannot venture and comment as to whether the dish is properly cooked or not using the correct ingredients.
On the other hand, I suppose they can mix Bechamel with Tahineh and Rasberry coulis on top of roasted potatoes and call it Pommes Boulangeres Orientale a speciality of Konfusedstestan when the French Emperor visited the place in 1800......Zzzzzzz

[ludja]

As an outsider to this thread, I was still interested to hear more about the vinegar. Can you shed more light on this, Nicolai, regarding the type of vinegar and also, if the use of it in this dish is relatively unique to Egypt or other areas?

As an aside, I'm somewhat surprised at the turn this thread quickly took. It initiallly seemed like people were offering their best faith information and educated guesses based on their experience and background. It didn't seem like anyone was claiming to be an expert on Eygptian cuisine. Further, it's great and should only be a win-win situation when someone else has more first hand knowledge or experience to share in a particular area or cuisine. I think contributions of this kind are warmly welcomed by all here.

[Smithy]

Crikey! (I wish I knew an Arabic equivalent of that expression of exasperation, but then there'd be an argument about how to spell it, so I'll stick with Brit.) I wish we could have these discussions without taking what Ludja so gracefully calls a sudden turn. It does happen a lot on this particular forum. Still, I've learned something - several somethings - so I'm glad I started this thread.

I too wish that the forum supported Arabic characters. In this case I'd still be stuck because the cookbook in question doesn't have the dish written in Arabic, and I forgot to write it down while I was there. (I wrote down a fair number of other dishes while I was there, to avoid just this sort of inane transliteration discussion, but that doesn't help unless the board supports Arabic characters.) I came close to buying a cookbook written in Arabic, but then realized it would be a waste of money until my skills get a lot better than they are now.

To answer your other question, Behemoth (I quite agree with your first), the dish tasted wonderful. The sauce was tangy-tart with the yogurt, vinegar and lemon, and yogurt-tahina-creamy. The chicken and bread help define the dish, so of course if they're off the dish will taste of it. I used chicken thighs to provide the meat and broth, and they tasted better than grocery store chicken usually does to me. The leftovers set up into something firmer than a sauce, and firmer and drier than I remember from my restaurant experiences, but it's still quite tasty. As far as the flavors go, it tastes pretty much as I remember it, but since I have to think back 2 years to the last time I had it in Egypt, my memory may be a bit shaky. With essentially 3 recipes for fatta shamy in the cookbook (1 recipe had 2 variations) it's pretty clear that the dish varies somewhat with the cook's tastes. I'll try them all.

Nicolai, thank you for your elucidation of the dish's name. I wish you'd been less caustic during the discussion, but I still appreciate the information. As Ludja notes, this should be a helpful exchange of information. Acrimony really doesn't belong here.

Archestratus, thank you for providing a common name for the lemon variety. I'm still coming up dry for a source in this country, but my curiosity is at least a bit satisfied. I'll probably have to make do with blending juices of 2 varieties readily available in the U.S.A.

Ludja, my friend in Egypt asked her housekeeper, who said that they most commonly use just white vinegar - plain, old, garden variety cheap white vinegar. Next time I'll try it that way. I thought the cane vinegar was pretty nice, but apparently that isn't commonly used.

[Nicolai]

As an outsider to this thread, I was still interested to hear more about the vinegar.  Can you shed more light on this, Nicolai, regarding the type of vinegar and also, if the use of it in this dish is relatively unique to Egypt or other areas?

As an aside, I'm somewhat surprised at the turn this thread quickly took.  It initiallly seemed like people were offering their best faith information and educated guesses based on their experience and background.  It didn't seem like anyone was claiming to be an expert on Eygptian cuisine.  Further, it's great and should only be a win-win situation when someone else has more first hand knowledge or experience to share in a particular area or cuisine.  I think contributions of this kind are warmly welcomed by all here.

I agree by and large on what you say. But I am very weary when information is offered on a guess basis to show knowledge or the lack of it.

As for Vinegar. In Egypt, vinegar is very much used in some purely local dishes. Depending on the dish, you would use red or white vinegar. Here in this example, almost always Tahineh is cut with white vinegar versus lemon juice in the Levant.
The famous Egyptian Koshari uses red vinegar in the tomato sauce. Moloukhya in Egypt is originally a soup cut with red vinegar and onions and transformed into a more solid dish with the addition of rice and chicken in the Levant. The Moloukhya in the Levant is offered either with red vinegar or Lemon juice.

Having said that, the Egyptian vinegar is of very strong acidic/metallic taste and to be avoided when possible and replaced by imported vinegar

The common yellow Meyer or Eureka or whatever variety of Lemons was not readily available in Egypt and another Lime like variety was available. Cost being at a premium, certain popular dishes used vinegar instead of Lemons.
The original Egyptian Ful did not use garlic or Lemon which is a Levant recipe. The Egyptian Ful was spiced with Cumin for acidity and served with chopped tomatoes, onions and Tahinah as a variant and not a must. Many Ful recipes exists but the introduction of Lemon juice is a Levant invention. Also bear in mind the lack of a Citrus crops in Egypt before 1980 and only developed post 1980.

As for Behemoth, until I get you the Arabic written Fatta Shami. I googled this one for you where the site lists Egyptian dishes and names this one as Kobeba Shami
I think the parallel is pretty clear.

[DianaBuja]

Crikey!  (I wish I knew an Arabic equivalent of that expression of exasperation, but then there'd be an argument about how to spell it, so I'll stick with Brit.)  I wish we could have these discussions without taking what Ludja so gracefully calls a sudden turn.  It does happen a lot on this particular forum.  Still, I've learned something - several somethings - so I'm glad I started this thread. 

I too wish that the forum supported Arabic characters. In this case I'd still be stuck because the cookbook in question doesn't have the dish written in Arabic, and I forgot to write it down while I was there.  (I wrote down a fair number of other dishes while I was there, to avoid just this sort of inane transliteration discussion, but that doesn't help unless the board supports Arabic characters.)  I came close to buying a cookbook written in Arabic, but then realized it would be a waste of money until my skills get a lot better than they are now.

We CAN use arab characters! >>>>

an online definition of 'pie' =

خُبْزَة مِنْ عَجِين تُلَتّ بِالزُّبْد أَوْ يُوضَع بِهَا لَحْم أَوْ غُيْرُهُ

'A bread made of flour containing butter or made with meat; etc.' i.e., a butter or meat-encrusted pastry.

Go to this site, a bit of work, but you can type the arabic and then paste to the list board: http://dictionary.sakhr.com

There are a number of online arabic-english dictionaries; enter "Arabic-Eglish dictionary: into googe, with the 'must have' word "online".

As for transliterations, the Library of Congress developed a version that is most commonly used in scholarly publications in english, and I find it really pretty fool-proof. Unfortunately, publishers of cook/travel/etc. books just don't seem to think that standardization is that important + sometimes the authors really aren't sure what the original word in arabic is/was [fatah; fata; fattah; ????? etc... ].

As for exasperation:

exasperation - noun - state of being irritated:

إِغَاظَة , تَبَرُّم , حِدَّة , حِفْظَة , حَفِيظَة , حَنَق , سَخَط , سُخْط , غَضَب , غَيْظ , مَوْجِدَة , نِقْمَة , نِكَايَة , هائِج

from: http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.as...;َة


DianaBuja

Edited by DianaBuja, 26 February 2006 - 02:29 AM.

[DianaBuja]

[quote name='Nicolai' date='Feb 19 2006, 02:48 AM']
[quote name='ludja' date='Feb 19 2006, 12:50 AM']
... Also bear in mind the lack of a Citrus crops in Egypt before 1980 and only developed post 1980.

Do you mean lack of improved/horticultural citrus crops prior to 1980? Certainly Burtoqaal were quite common prior to 1980 - even in rual areas; pretty bitter, but theydid exist.

As for Behemoth, until I get you the Arabic written Fatta Shami. I googled this one for you where the site lists Egyptian dishes and names this one as Kobeba Shami
I think the parallel is pretty clear.

Well, I put the recipe into an AltaVista online translator and came out with the following ; perhaps you could put in English for us

- Kobeba Shami-
Time of preparaci: 60 Minutes
Time of Cocci: 60 Minutes
Difficulty (from 1 to 5): 5

Ingredients:
1/2 kg of perforated meat
2 glasses of worn out Burghul
1 rallada great onion
1/2 oil glass
Salt
Pepper
Spices
Relleno:1/4 kg of pricked meat, salt, pepper, spices, 2 spoonfuls of oil, 1 great onion in trocitos, almond and pi?es
... etc...

But, the site on LEMONS is great; thanks.

DianaBuja

[/quote]

[DianaBuja]

... Another recipe in this cookbook is simply called fatta.  The introduction says, "Fatta is one of the most popular national dishes of Egypt.  It is eaten on every important occasion such as Big Bairam, Religious feasts, weddings, etc."  This fatta recipe, provided by Magda Barakat, calls for meat (veal, beef or lamb) OR chicken; it uses rice with broth; it uses Baladi breads (big pita); and it uses a garlic sauce with tomato.  There is no yogurt or tahina in this particular recipe.

I don't feel right reproducing the recipes, since the book is copyrighted.  The book itself is noted above in my earlier post.

Fatta/fatah is commonly a beduin dish - cooked by the tribes to the west of/ interfacing with the Nile Valley. A very hearty dish, but much more simple that the variations being discussed in this thread. And, prepared not in relation to a particular holiday [necessarily] - but any important celebration or visit of a guest.

A lamb is usually slaughtered - sometimes a goat - the meat lopped into pieces, bone in, and simmered/boiled with spices [cardamon; garlic; maybe onion; pepper; salt]. When the meat begins to fall off the bone, pieces of bread are placed at the bottom of a large kettle, broth added - then, cooked rice; more broth then maybe more bread and broth and finally meat on top. How ingredients are added/layered is up to the cook.

The meat can be seared in semna with lots of garlic, then the water added.

In rural Egypt, I've never seen/eaten it with tomatoes in it. Nor with vinegar – but of course that doesn’t mean it’s not found.

Sometimes the dish is inverted onto a large, round tray, around which all gather with spoons and 'dig in' - or the casserole may be placed on a tray and everyone digs into that.

Not fancy, but very satisfying especially during the very cold winter months.

Many / most recipes in the Middle East cookbooks with which I'm familiar reflect urban food and not the 'common fare' of balady/ country folk. That's certainly not a criticism, but a critique on how our perceptions of who eats what in a region - and how it is cooked - can be tempered by these foody-origins.

On reproducing recipes - my understanding is that as long as the recipe is properly attributed/sited, it can be reproduced - as found on most foody lists. Any thoughts on this?

DianaBuja

[Nicolai]

1- The type of lemons mostly available in Egypt were/are what is called Laimoun Banzahir. These are closer in taste and shape to limes than the Meyer or Eureka lemon variety. Of course oranges were available but Egypt was not known for its citrus crops quality or quantity and it was difficult and costly to source the yellow common variety.

2- I edited the recipe for ease of preparation and should read as follows:

Time of preparation: 60mn
Cooking Time: 60 mn
Difficulty (from 1 to 5) : 5

Ingredients for Kobeba Shami:
1/2 kg of ground meat (lamb or beef)
2 glasses of Burghul (cracked wheat)
1 large onion finely chopped
Salt and Pepper
1/2 glass of olive oil or frying oil (irrelevant as Kobeba eggs or balls or torpidos or whatever you wish to call them should be deep fried).

Ingredients for Stuffing:
1/4 kg of ground meat (lamb or beef)
Salt and Pepper
2 spoonful of olive oil or frying oil
1 large onion finely chopped
Almonds and Pine Kernels

Way of Preparation:
A) Stuffing:
Fry the meat in oil with the spices and the onion until done then add almond and Pine Kernels (you can lightly fry these and then add to the meat as an alternative).

B) Kobeba:
- Soak the Burghul in boiled water (2hrs) until soft and then drain any excess water. (I would advise to only wash the Burghul in cold water and not soak in boiled water). Some recipes call for a full soak and some for a wash. The difference is in the final product as to whether you like your kibbe with bite or smooth. Pounding the mixture with meat or cutting in a blender has also a similar effect and it is a matter of taste.
- Add the ground meat and other ingredients and mix or pound in a large mortar.
- Knead and divide the mixture to the size of an egg and flatten in the palm of your hand. Fill with the stuffing mixture and close the shell to form an elongated egg shape encasing the stuffing (torpido shape).
- Deep fry in oil and serve.

- Another option is to grease a baking pan with oil or ghee or butter then spread half of the Kobeba mixture as a base and spread the stuffing over it and spread and cover with the remaining Kobeba mixture.
Cut longitudinal parallel lines with the knife (only cut through the top layer), rotate the mold and cut again to form diamond shapes finally run your knife around the edge of the pan. Spread some butter or ghee or oil lightly on top and bake in moderate oven until done reddish brown color (approx 45mn @ 375F) and serve.

I should point out that this is a translation and adaptation of the recipe posted and by all means not the recommended recipe for Kibbe which can be found on any Lebanon food site or Syrian one. The difference is the Lebanese recipe is light, thin and crunchy while the Syrian one is heavier, more moist and thicker.

Horses for courses.

[DianaBuja]

1- The type of lemons mostly available in Egypt were/are what is called Laimoun Banzahir. These are closer in taste and shape to limes than the Meyer or Eureka lemon variety. Of course oranges were available but Egypt was not known for its citrus crops quality or quantity and it was difficult and costly to source the yellow common variety.

2- I edited the recipe for ease of preparation and should read as follows:

Time of preparation: 60mn
Cooking Time: 60 mn
Difficulty (from 1 to 5) : 5

Ingredients for Kobeba Shami:
1/2 kg of ground meat (lamb or beef)
2 glasses of Burghul (cracked wheat)
1 large onion finely chopped
Salt and Pepper
1/2 glass of olive oil or frying oil (irrelevant as Kobeba eggs or balls or torpidos or whatever you wish to call them should be deep fried).

Ingredients for Stuffing:
1/4 kg of ground meat (lamb or beef)
Salt and Pepper
2 spoonful of olive oil or frying oil
1 large onion finely chopped
Almonds and Pine Kernels

Way of Preparation:
A) Stuffing:
Fry the meat in oil with the spices and the onion until done then add almond and Pine Kernels (you can lightly fry these and then add to the meat as an alternative). 

B) Kobeba:
- Soak the Burghul in boiled water (2hrs) until soft and then drain any excess water. (I would advise to only wash the Burghul in cold water and not soak in boiled water). Some recipes call for a full soak and some for a wash. The difference is in the final product as to whether you like your kibbe with bite or smooth. Pounding the mixture with meat or cutting in a blender has also a similar effect and it is a matter of taste.
- Add the ground meat and other ingredients and mix or pound in a large mortar. 
- Knead and divide the mixture to the size of an egg and flatten in the palm of your hand. Fill with the stuffing mixture and close the shell to form an elongated egg shape encasing the stuffing (torpido shape).
- Deep fry in oil and serve.

- Another option is to grease a baking pan with oil or ghee or butter then spread half of the Kobeba mixture as a base and spread the stuffing over it and spread and cover with the remaining Kobeba mixture.
Cut longitudinal parallel lines with the knife (only cut through the top layer), rotate the mold and cut again to form diamond shapes finally run your knife around the edge of the pan. Spread some butter or ghee or oil lightly on top and bake in moderate oven until done reddish brown color (approx 45mn @ 375F) and serve.

I should point out that this is a translation and adaptation of the recipe posted and by all means not the recommended recipe for Kibbe which can be found on any Lebanon food site or Syrian one. The difference is the Lebanese recipe is light, thin and crunchy while the Syrian one is heavier, more moist and thicker.

Horses for courses.

Thanks for the translation. The last option is the one I'm most familiar with.

As for indigenous oranges vs. horticultual/market-oriented oranges, I take it you were referring to the latter.

OT - 'horses for courses' - are you a horse-person? Here in Burundi at our Cercle Hippique, we have but 31 horses left - that is all remaining in central Africa, where before the wars started a decade ago there were said to have been over 25,000 Not killed to eat, just general slaghter and attrition.

DianaBuja.

[Smithy]

... Another recipe in this cookbook is simply called fatta.  The introduction says, "Fatta is one of the most popular national dishes of Egypt.  It is eaten on every important occasion such as Big Bairam, Religious feasts, weddings, etc."  This fatta recipe, provided by Magda Barakat, calls for meat (veal, beef or lamb) OR chicken; it uses rice with broth; it uses Baladi breads (big pita); and it uses a garlic sauce with tomato.  There is no yogurt or tahina in this particular recipe.

I don't feel right reproducing the recipes, since the book is copyrighted.  The book itself is noted above in my earlier post.

Fatta/fatah is commonly a beduin dish - cooked by the tribes to the west of/ interfacing with the Nile Valley. A very hearty dish, but much more simple that the variations being discussed in this thread. And, prepared not in relation to a particular holiday [necessarily] - but any important celebration or visit of a guest.

A lamb is usually slaughtered - sometimes a goat - the meat lopped into pieces, bone in, and simmered/boiled with spices [cardamon; garlic; maybe onion; pepper; salt]. When the meat begins to fall off the bone, pieces of bread are placed at the bottom of a large kettle, broth added - then, cooked rice; more broth then maybe more bread and broth and finally meat on top. How ingredients are added/layered is up to the cook.

The meat can be seared in semna with lots of garlic, then the water added.

In rural Egypt, I've never seen/eaten it with tomatoes in it. Nor with vinegar – but of course that doesn’t mean it’s not found.

Sometimes the dish is inverted onto a large, round tray, around which all gather with spoons and 'dig in' - or the casserole may be placed on a tray and everyone digs into that.

Not fancy, but very satisfying especially during the very cold winter months.

Many / most recipes in the Middle East cookbooks with which I'm familiar reflect urban food and not the 'common fare' of balady/ country folk. That's certainly not a criticism, but a critique on how our perceptions of who eats what in a region - and how it is cooked - can be tempered by these foody-origins.

On reproducing recipes - my understanding is that as long as the recipe is properly attributed/sited, it can be reproduced - as found on most foody lists. Any thoughts on this?

DianaBuja

Thanks for all that information on fatta, DianaBuja! The serving information is interesting. You said you haven't seen it with tomato, or with vinegar. Have you seen yogurt, or tahina, mixed into the sauce?

With regard to reproducing copyrighted recipes: eGullet is stricter than most boards about posting copyrighted material. Basically, the policy is that you must not post someone else's copyrighted information without permission, except in short excerpts or in certain contexts such as discussing a chef's approach to some dish. If you haven't read it before, you should take some time to read The eGullet.com Copyright and Fair Use, Plagiarism, and Bandwidth Theft Policy, particularly with regard to reprinting copyrighted recipes. (The recipe part is roughly halfway down the page.) In this case - discussing how a particular dish is put together - reprinting the actual recipe strikes me as being on the borderline as to whether it would be acceptable or not. I'm not sure the specific proportions would be necessary or helpful. I've asked a moderator to advise me about whether I should stick to the ingredient listing as I did in my earlier post, or feel free to post the recipe as Nicolai requested.

I am thinking about making the fatta shamy again and posting photos to see what y'all think. As I look over the recipe I see I made it more complicated than I needed to. Doing it again would simplify it for me. Meanwhile, I like the idea of inverting the whole thing onto a platter for easier serving. That might look really cool!

[Smithy]

1- The type of lemons mostly available in Egypt were/are what is called Laimoun Banzahir. These are closer in taste and shape to limes than the Meyer or Eureka lemon variety. Of course oranges were available but Egypt was not known for its citrus crops quality or quantity and it was difficult and costly to source the yellow common variety.

Nicolai, I tried several variations on that lemon spelling and came up dry. I'm still trying to find a cultivar that I might pursue in the USA via botanical methods, or via specialty grocers. Do you know what banzahir means? For instance - does it refer to a location, or a type description? It doesn't seem to be part of a botanical name.

[Nicolai]

Leimoun Benzahir.....Hummmmm!

Benzahir is not a descriptor of a location or type of plant.

The following is pure personal speculation:
The first part "Ben" or "Bin" in Arabic is the "son of" i.e. related to.
The second part derivative of the Zahir in Arabic is Zahr for flowers.
So it is in slang "the son of flowers" or in other words a derivative of a flower bearing tree/plant.
The alternative of the name might be a Turkish or Persian derivative.
Now that would need an investigation.

To elaborate further on the type of Lemons available in Egypt. The common yellow variety is refered to as Laimoun Baladi or Laimoun Shami (here is the Shami word again). You can also refer to Lemons as Laimoun Hamod or simply Hamod which means sour as opposed to Laimoun Bortocal which is Orange. However Hamod el Laimoun is not a fruit........Zzzzzz

[Smithy]

We CAN use arab characters! >>>>

an online definition of 'pie' =

خُبْزَة مِنْ عَجِين تُلَتّ بِالزُّبْد أَوْ يُوضَع بِهَا لَحْم أَوْ غُيْرُهُ

'A bread made of flour containing butter or made with meat; etc.' i.e., a butter or meat-encrusted pastry.

Go to this site, a bit of work, but you can type the arabic and then paste to the list board: http://dictionary.sakhr.com

There are a number of online arabic-english dictionaries; enter "Arabic-Eglish dictionary: into googe, with the 'must have' word "online".

As for transliterations, the Library of Congress developed a version that is most commonly used in scholarly publications in english, and I find it really pretty fool-proof.  Unfortunately, publishers of cook/travel/etc. books just don't seem to think that standardization is that important + sometimes the authors really aren't sure what the original word in arabic is/was [fatah; fata; fattah; ????? etc...  ]. 

As for exasperation:

exasperation - noun  - state of being irritated:

إِغَاظَة , تَبَرُّم , حِدَّة , حِفْظَة , حَفِيظَة , حَنَق , سَخَط , سُخْط , غَضَب , غَيْظ , مَوْجِدَة , نِقْمَة , نِكَايَة , هائِج

from: http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.as...;َة


DianaBuja

I just now spotted this post. Thank you for the links!

[Smithy]

Leimoun Benzahir.....Hummmmm!

Benzahir is not a descriptor of a location or type of plant.

The following is pure personal speculation:
The first part "Ben" or "Bin" in Arabic is the "son of" i.e. related to.
The second part derivative of the Zahir in Arabic is Zahr for flowers.
So it is in slang "the son of flowers" or in other words a derivative of a flower bearing tree/plant.
The alternative of the name might be a Turkish or Persian derivative.
Now that would need an investigation.

To elaborate further on the type of Lemons available in Egypt. The common yellow variety is refered to as Laimoun Baladi or Laimoun Shami (here is the Shami word again). You can also refer to Lemons as Laimoun Hamod or simply Hamod which means sour as opposed to Laimoun Bortocal which is Orange. However Hamod el Laimoun is not a fruit........Zzzzzz

So...I'm almost afraid to ask, but...is the laimoun shami supposed to be a Levantine lemon, or Damascus lemon? Or does shami mean something else in this case?

I'm glad to know I correctly remembered the laimoun baladi part. That's what I thought I'd been told when I asked in the souq.

Edited by Smithy, 28 February 2006 - 11:02 AM.