24 replies to this topic

[Grub]

Murgh Vindaloo -- Portuguese Style Chicken, or Vinegar Chicken. From Betty Crocker's Indian Home Cooking, Recipes by Raghavan Iyer, p. 104.

Any comments or suggestions are most welcome!

I was introduced to Indian cooking on Rushholme's (in)famous Curry Mile when going to college in Manchester. I'd never tasted any Indian food before, and refused to eat the first curry I was served -- I thought there was something wrong with it; that the food had gone bad... But since poor students in the area ate Indian all the time, I eventually learned to enjoy it -- first through mild, spinach based dishes, but by the time I graduated, I was a veritable vindaloo-overdosing, lager-lout, and making unpleasant jokes about keeping the bogrolls in the fridge.

I've (unsuccessfully) kept trying to recreate the English Indian Vindaloo, since American Indian restaurants just don't do the same thing, but I've also cooked several dishes from this excellent book, that seems more authentic Indian, than the British curry house. And since I probably couldn't cope with a fiery English Vindaloo anymore -- and since I remember thinking, when I first tasted them, that I wished there was a way to enjoy the great flavor, but without the heat, I figured I'd give this one a go. This is a fairly detailed log of how it went, along with some notes about how I diverged from the recipe.

The ingredients, prepped from right to left, by the order they are used:
- 1 very large red onion (recipe called for 2 medium -- I assume they meant yellow, but this is all I had);
- 6 cloves garlic, 1.5" ginger both coarsely chopped (they called for a little less, and also for this to be added along with the onions, but I find that ginger and garlic loses all their flavor if cooked along, so I hold off for a bit);
- 3/4 cup tomato sauce, along with 1/2 tsp salt, 1 tbsp ground coriander seeds, 1/4 tsp ground turmeric, 1.5 tsp cayenne pepper and 1/2 tsp ground cumin seeds (recipe called for 1/2 tsp cayenne, but since it isn't originally a spicy dish, I added more -- recipe also called for 1 tsp ground cumin, but since I use freshly ground cumin seeds, it turns out WAY more powerful than pre-ground cumin. I find it hard to believe that this book expects pre-ground cumin, but it just completely overpowers any dishes that I cook from it, if I use the full amount). This is all loaded up in the tomato sauce can just for convenience, so I can just dump the can afterwards, without dirtying up an extra meez thingie.
- 2 chicken breasts, cut into pieces.
- 1/2 cup coconut milk, 1/4 cup white wine vinegar (in the coconut milk can).
- 1/4 cup yogurt.


Start off with some oil at med-high heat and add 2 onions, coarsely chopped. Cook until onion gets golden brown, and add1 tbsp ginger and 5 cloves garlic -- also coarsely chopped. This goes against the recipe, which calls for all three ingredients to be added at the start -- I find the garlic and ginger flavor dissipates that way...




Also, the recipe calls for a 5 min cooking time, which is less than half the time it takes for the onion to get golden brown. Nearly EVERY cooking book I've used completely underestimates the cooking time like this. Are these recipes all created in the Iron Chef kitchen, where they have monstrous wok burners that put out the equivalent of an F-16 on afterburner? 5 minutes on medium high = golden brown onions, my ass!

After 5-6 minutes, I add the ginger and garlic, and let it cook for a few more minutes.




Now, once the onions are "golden brown" (or I guess that they would have been, if they were yellow onions), I add 3/4 cup tomato sauce, 1 tbsp coriander seeds, 1 tsp cumin seeds, 1/4 tsp turmeric, and 1/2 tsp cayenne pepper -- all ground, bring it to a simmer, and leave it partially covered for 5 minutes. A thin film of oil is supposed to form on the surface. This is the sauce.




Pop it in the blender, and return to the pan.




Add 1 lb. chopped chicken breasts, and let cook for 5 minutes.





Stir in 1/4 cup white vinegar and 1/2 cup coconut milk, and cook until chicken is done. (Oops, I wanted to take the picture just after I added this, but I forgot, and stirred it in before taking the picture. Doh).




Finally, whisk 1/4 cup plain nonfat (or regular) yogurt until it is smooth, mix it in, and let it warm up. The yogurt and coconut milk helps smooth out the sharp, bitter taste of the vinegar.




Serve with rice, and/or nan bread of your choice.


I really liked the result of this recipe. It was slightly hot, but certainly nowhere NEAR the typical English Vindaloo. Most importantly, it had a truly wonderful taste, even though the vinegar taste came on a bit too strong. So next time around, I'll go easier on the vinegar -- and make sure to have some yellow onions on hand.

Edit: Murgh, not Mungh -- but can't change the subject, though...

Edited by Grub, 07 May 2005 - 06:07 AM.

[waaza]

Well, you asked for comments and suggestions, so here's my tupence-worth.

I see your education took you along the path trod by most students, and was your introduction to 'so-called' Indian food. As you progress along this path of enlightenment, you will quickly learn that what you sampled was not Indian food at all. Please let me explain.

The restaurants of Rusholme are like most (if not nearly all) those to be found in the UK. They were set up and run by people who were probably not from India, though they may have been descendants originally. What they offered then, (and it really hasn't changed much) is a cuisine that has been born out of a need to present a tasty, spicy dish, quickly, and to make profit (nothing wrong with the latter, the raison d'être of any business!). Unfortunately, what is on offer is neither Indian nor very nice, all the dishes are made from a common stock, so taste nearly the same. There are no standardised recipes used, and it is a lottery as to what one ends up with.

However, all that can change if you 'do it yourself'.

Firstly, I applaud your attempt; you bare all, and end up with something you say you like. That’s the good part. I would suggest that, although you like it, it isn't vindaloo as we know it, for these reasons:

As you state correctly, the original recipe is Portuguese, in fact the original vin d'alhous still exists in Portugal, and as the name suggests, is a dish made with wine/vinegar and garlic, and pork. Essentially, this is a pork dish, and uses more strongly flavoured meat than maybe we are familiar with. Why? Because the flavours (from the spice) and vinegar (partly to counter-act the fatty pork) are very powerful, and less flavoursome meats will be over-powered by the other flavours. However, all is not lost, other meats can be substituted, like duck or other game birds, ostrich, and my favourite, kangaroo.
Don't laugh, it really works, and why? The meat to use must be strong tasting and a little tough, so the marinating and long slow cooking help to break down the flesh to become mellow and tender. Here are my tips for you:

The essence of this dish is meat (see above, but lets call it pork) which is marinated in spices and vinegar and garlic, and dried red chillies. The final result is a thick gravy (not a sauce, see later) in which is a tender meat which is tangy when bitten into. The chillies mellow with the spicing to produce a dish that is full of flavour and deeply satisfying.

First of all, you will choose a meat that has flavour, so chicken breasts are not the best choice, and as chicken breasts only require a short cooking time, it will be tough by the time the gravy has mellowed).

Cut the meat into bite sized pieces.
Add spices (here you could use your own mixes, or one of the vindaloo spice pastes, which are not too bad, although you have no control over their content).
Add finely chopped garlic and ginger (from the photos (they are a great help in determining your problems, by the way, well done) they are not small enough, they should be very finely cut to release the flavours and contribute to forming a gravy).
Add the vinegar (originally wine vinegar would have been used, the Goans use coconut palm vinegar, known as toddy. An alternative is cider vinegar, but definitely not malt vinegar, or any which is too strong. I use home-made vinegar with red wine drags and elderberry juice).
Add a touch of oil, this is to extract some of the flavours from those spices which are not extracted by water.
Finally, add some crushed dried red chillies (leave the seeds in!), according to taste and availability, fresh ones don’t seem to give the same flavour to this dish.
The meat is then marinated for 24 hours. This tenderises the meat, and adds moisture to meat which is probably too dry (when purchased).

Now comes the cooking:
Put oil in the pan, and heat to moderate (say 50% of maximum on most cookers). Add the finely chopped onion, (try to use medium sized grade 2 onions, they have more flavour and tend to have more sugar and less moisture (the onion flavour killer!). It must be diced much finer than in your photos, say 3mm dice or less. This is to enable the water to be fried out so that browning of the meat can happen. You state, quite correctly IMHO, that 'golden onions' take much longer than 5 minutes to cook, and I would agree, depending on temperatures it can take 15 to 20 minutes. Now, what do you think of cookbooks (and celebrity chefs for that matter) who say differently? Does it instil confidence?
Once the onions have turned golden (from your photos, yours aren't anywhere near golden) add the marinated meat, but leave the liquid from the marinade in the bowl (I wouldn't use a tin, as lead acetate is soluble, and poisonous!). Cook the meat until all the liquid marinade around it has dried, and the juices that will come out of the meat dries as well. Continue heating on medium heat until the meat has browned. This will only happen if all the water has boiled away. In your recipe, you make a water based sauce in which you simmer the chicken, doesn't give much flavour to the chicken, does it?

You should now have a pan with browned meat, and spices that are being extracted by the oil/fat.
Now you can add the rest of the marinade liquor, cook until all the water/vinegar has gone. As soon as this happens, add a little more water, and continue frying until all that water has gone. This method is called bhuna, and helps to extract and develop deeper flavours than would be possible from just simmering with water-base sauces. After you have done this a few times, you can add a quantity of other water-based ingredients, like tomatoes and/or tamarind water.
Now simmer until the meat is perfectly cooked, you determine this point, by the way, not the clock!

Notes! Neither coconut nor yoghurt is added to vindaloo
The vinegar should have been boiled away, only the tang inside the meat gives a clue to its use.

You should end up with tender tangy meat in a thick, spicy and chilli-hot (to your tastes, of course) gravy. It will be dark brown in colour, and quite pungent. It is best served along with other curries/dishes, as the flavours (and heat) are really too powerful for a large portion. It keeps well in the fridge, and re-heats just as well.

I hope this helps you on your road to 'curry' enlightenment. The info is given as help, and in no way as a criticism of your efforts. Please try it, it's a lot easier to do than to write

cheers
Waaza
ps I'd ditch the wooden spoon, absorbs flavours, try metal or plastic

Edited by waaza, 08 May 2005 - 07:00 AM.

[touaregsand]

Hi Grub-

It looks fantastic.

You state, quite correctly IMHO, that 'golden onions' take much longer than 5 minutes to cook, and I would agree, depending on temperatures it can take 15 to 20 minutes. Now, what do you think of cookbooks (and celebrity chefs for that matter) who say differently? Does it instil confidence?

I've never heard a chef say that golden onions can be had in 5 minutes. They are translucent at 5 minutes, depending on the temp.

Anyway, Grub if you like chicken vindaloo legs and thighs with the bone in take longer to cook then breasts and would yield a more complex sauce. I think I'll try your recipe today,

[Grub]

touaregsand, thanks! Yeah, I think legs and thighs would probably be better than just plain chicken breasts, but seeing the above advice, I think I'll make this with pork the next time.

waaza, those are great suggestions; thank you so much for taking the time to do this! I'll definitely follow your advice the next time around.

(I do know that "British Indian" food isn't the "real deal," any more than Indian food served in American restaurants is (or for that sake, Mexican or Chinese foods served in the US -- or anywhere else in the world, outside India, Mexico or China, respectively). I would very much like to learn how to create authentic Indian food, yet at the same time I wouldn't turn my nose down at the "so-called" Indian food of Britain. It doesn't matter if the food is "so-called" or authentic to me -- if I can learn how to cook either, the most important thing to me is to create a tasty meal.)

Your suggests are very inspiring. I agree completely with what you say, about "Does it instill confidence" -- absolutely not. And as far as the cookbook also adding coconut milk and yogurt to the vindaloo -- yeah I guess this thing isn't anywhere near as authentic as I thought it was.

One question though -- I've seen vindaloos with potatoes a lot of the time. Is that authentic?

Well, I'll probably have to wait a little while, since I've done three vindaloos in the last couple of weeks, but once I have another go, this is what I'll go for -- see if you think it makes sense...

- 1 lb pork cut into bite-sized pieces, and marinated overnight in:
- 1 tbsp ground coriander seeds.
- 1/2 tsp ground turmeric.
- 1/2 tsp ground cumin seeds.
- garlic.
- ginger.
- 1/4 cup vinegar.
- 4 crushed dried red chilies (no cayenne needed).
- 1 tbsp oil.
(Should I mix this together in a blender, to form a paste?)

1. Finely chop 2 med yellow onions, squeeze out moisture (dry w/ paper towels)
2. Cook over medium heat until golden, 15-20 minutes.
3. Remove meat from marinade (scrape marinade off as much as possible).
4. Cook meat until browned.
5. Reduce heat to low, add marinade, 1/4 cup water, cook until dry.
6. Add 3/4 cup tomato sauce, simmer until done.

Oh yeah, and I'll use a metal spoon the next time around.

Thanks for excellent advice!

[Carlovski]

Not only is British Indian food different to 'real' Indian, the food found in Rusholme is on the whole different to most other places in the UK - around 90% of the 'Indian' restaurants in the UK are run by Bangladeshis, Rusholme is predominantly Punjabi.
Most of the restaurants have adapted their recipes to be more standard British indian, but still much of the food is different, sometimes subtley, sometimes not.

You also forgot the vital part of the Brit-Indian vindaloo - the potato (Allegedly from a dodgy translation of the 'aloo' part)
Also, as has been mentioned elsewhere on the site something that does give that British curry house taste is a little dried fenugreek leaf at the end.
Wazaa,
Godd point about the onions - it is something I have ranted about elsewhere on eGullet - most recipe books wildly underestimate the time it takes to properly brown onions. Part of the reason I like Camilla Panjabi's 50 great curries of India book, it emphasises the right kind of onions (Not too sweet) and the importance of long slow cooking.

[waaza]

waaza, those are great suggestions; thank you so much for taking the time to do this! I'll definitely follow your advice the next time around.

Thanks for the reply, Grub, I'm happy that you took my post as just trying to help, rather than to criticise.

The reason I prefer the more 'authentic' approach (whatever that means in this context? ) rather than the 'British UK restaurant' curry approach is one of quality of product, rather than one of 'purity'. The more traditional methods of preparation, in my experience, always give a good product, and are usually based on good culinary (and scientifically sound) ideas. The methods used in Indian cooking are often complex, far more, in general, than even French cooking methods, though all are based on understandable techniques, such as braising, frying and grilling etc.

Many curries use either coconut milk or yoghurt, I can't think of one that uses both (off the top of my head!) and is usually determined by geography (and therefore availability) rather than preference. So coconut in Kashmiri dishes (the original ones, anyway!) would not have been appropriate, as Kashmir and Jammu are about 1000 miles from the sea. So think yoghurt in the north and coconut milk in the south. By the way, if you like a little coconut, by all means add a little, at the end, or look at a dish called Xacuti (other spellings include shacuti and chacooti), it’s a kind of milder vindaloo with coconut, I think you might like it. This is one of the wonderful things about Indian cuisine, if one prefers something different to the norm, there is usually a dish to suit, and already worked out to get the most from the ingredients.


I think potatoes in vindaloo are not authentic. It is too easy to say that they are put in 'restaurant' vindaloo because of peoples' (ie not from Goa) misconception that the aloo in this dish means potato. There are several dishes I have come across where potato is added (like dhansak) but I can't see why it is there, just because it is liked, I've concluded.

- 1 lb pork cut into bite-sized pieces, and marinated overnight in:
- 1 tbsp ground coriander seeds.
- 1/2 tsp ground turmeric.
- 1/2 tsp ground cumin seeds.
- garlic.
- ginger.
- 1/4 cup vinegar.
- 4 crushed dried red chilies (no cayenne needed).
- 1 tbsp oil.
(Should I mix this together in a blender, to form a paste?)

I suggest you also consider a little home-made garam masala, and even fenugreek seed, sometimes I add a little star anise, (not so unusual as trade with China was rife, and it goes so well with pork)
I would also suggest you roast the whole spices a little before cooling and grinding. This changes the coriander flavour (and cumin to a lesser extent) and produces a deeper, slightly nutty flavour that is welcomed in this dish. Yep, mix to a thick paste, and cover with thick cling film, as the aromatics are penetrating!
Note, I would not roast spice mixes unless specifically suggested to do so in a good recipe. The misconception that all the mixes are roasted is not true, it changes the flavour, and not for the better in most cases. All of the aromatics are volatile (or we could not smell them!) so by heating them, we reduce the pungency, not increase it!

1. Finely chop 2 med yellow onions, squeeze out moisture (dry w/ paper towels)
2. Cook over medium heat until golden, 15-20 minutes.
3. Remove meat from marinade (scrape marinade off as much as possible).
4. Cook meat until browned.
5. Reduce heat to low, add marinade, 1/4 cup water, cook until dry.
6. Add 3/4 cup tomato sauce, simmer until done.

no need to dry the moisture out of the onions, just use immediately; if allowed to stand for anytime, the enzymes in the onion start to work on the contents and produce off flavours and the chemicals in the vapours from the onion hydrolyse in water and form acids. That’s why our eyes are irritated when cutting onions, (blow the vapour away (with a fan), and no more tears! This is one of the reasons why we aim to cook out (as in golden onions) most of the water in the onion, it reduces the possibility of forming the 'boiled onion' flavours, and to achieve a state where only oil/fat remains in the pan. Together with the sugars produced from prolonged cooking (which breaks down the starch stored in the onion (as raw material for next year's growth)) the meat can then be browned and allowed to form other flavours with the sugars. How many curry recipes do you see sugar added? If the onions are cooked to golden, this will not be necessary. Also, do not discard the root end (not the roots themselves!) as this contains most of the sulphur-containing flavour compounds, make sure it is very finely chopped, though.
I would leave any marinade clinging to the meat in place, it’s the cooked flavour you are after.
Don't forget the bhuna stage, heat to dry the juices in the pan, then add a little water and repeat, it really makes a difference.

Good luck, and please report back on what you did, and your results (a photo would be nice).
HTH
Cheers
Waaza

Edited by waaza, 09 May 2005 - 05:43 AM.

[CharityCase]

I've experimented with a few different Vindaloo recipes...many of which do include potatoes although no one knows why or why not. I most recently tried Monica Bhide's Pork Vindaloo and it was easily the best version I've made (and one of the easiest too).

Don't worry about "real" indian, Monica really is Indian so this is probably authentic enough for the non-indians! :)

I'm including the actual recipe link, plus a link to her eGCI course on basic Indian cooking. You'll probably find this very helpful and for this recipe the pictures will help guide you in the kitchen. In the eGCI link the recipe is about halfway down the post.

Best of luck and throw up a few pictures as you do it!

Recipe Link

Monica's excellent eGCI course

[Grub]

Carlovski, I see. I did eventually realize that more than one culture was involved, culinary speaking, once I realized what "Halal" was -- and that some of the kebabs, like doner, was more of a Greek or Turkish origin, than Indian... Seekh kebab was my favorite (at "Abduhl's Takeaway"), and a large would consist of three skewers worth of meat served in a nan, whereas a small one would be two skewers, served in a pita bread. There was a restaurant named Punjabi-something, that I liked a lot and we visited quite a lot, and it was unusual in that they didn't serve alcohol (rather important for us student), but the food was good enough to forget about that...

I like potatoes quite a lot, so even if it isn't authentic, I'd be happy to include it -- but it would seem a little redundant, if I serve the dish over rice, though?

waaza, oh no, I never thought your post was critical in nature -- it was very constructive and helpful -- just the kind of response I was hoping for. I've been longing for good Indian food for a long time, and several of my friends love it too, so I'm very glad to find some good suggestions.

I completely agree with the line of thinking about quality, rather than purity, although I will probably always remain open to approaching cooking both from the perspective of "British" curries, as well as the more authentic styles.

Coconut south, yogurt north -- now that's interesting, and useful information! I'll have a look around for Xacuti/Shacuti/Chacooti.

Potatoes, I like a lot, but I could go either way -- it seems sort of redundant to add potatoes to the dish, if it is served over rice, so I guess I'll leave them out for now.

Re. the recipe:
- Most recipes I've seen only adds garam masala at the end of the cooking process, which gave me the impression that cooking garam masala for any length of time would make its flavors dissipate. Should I add it at the end, or include it in the marinade?
- I've tried adding fenugreek seeds, but found that it had little or no impact on the overall flavor -- but that fenugreek leaves added a lot (although this was specifically suggested for British curries) -- would adding fenugreek leaves at the end be acceptable, instead of fenugreek seeds?
- I've only ever used star anise once, and it was so exceptionally strong; it completely overpowered and ruined the dish. Would it be okay to just take a tiny portion of a star anise, rather than a whole one?

On roasting the whole spices, okay, I'll definitely do that. One part of the Betty Crocker book that I still trust, is the description of spices, and it says spices can have several quite different flavors, depending on whether they are used whole, ground, roasted whole, roasted whole and the ground etc. and I find cumin particularly overwhelming when ground, so roasting it first (along with coriander) should be very interesting.

And I won't dry the onions, but make sure to cook them immediately after dicing them up, check.

And the bhuna stage, I'll make a note to pay attention to this especially.

It'll probably be at least a week before I do this vindaloo again, but I'll definitely report back here -- with pictures.

Thanks again!


CharityCase, wow, that DOES seem like an extremely easy versions -- extremely minimalistic, as far as the spices go. I've read through Monica's excellent course, and have jotted down several of her recipes that I'd love to try. Right now, I think I'll go along the route of what I've got so far in this thread, with the help of waaza, but I'm sure I'll get around to trying this recipe eventually! Thanks.

[waaza]

Re. the recipe:
- Most recipes I've seen only adds garam masala at the end of the cooking process, which gave me the impression that cooking garam masala for any length of time would make its flavors dissipate. Should I add it at the end, or include it in the marinade?

garam masala is a funny subject. The 'original' comes from Ayuveda texts, and is supposed to have a warming effect on the body, hence its name, usually translated as 'hot spices', except the 'warming' part is spiritual, rather than actual, did you ever get a warm feeling from just garam masala? I think the original texts list the following, black cardamom, cassia (both from China I think), black cumin, cloves and black pepper. Cassia is similar to cinnamom from Sri Lanka, except it has an open structure, rather than curled up, and its flavour is more savoury. I prefer it as it marries with other aromatics very well, and doesn't produce shards when put in the grinder. Many suppliers, especially in America confuse cassia and cinnamom, most of it is cassia. Black cumin is indigenous to N India, especially Kashmir & Jammu, and is collected from the wild. It must never be confused with, or substituted by caraway, which is often quoted in cookbooks as an Indian spice.
I would suggest you make your own garam masala from green cardamom, cassia, cloves and mace only, adding freshly ground black pepper. Add it at the stage I suggested, this extracts the aromatics into the oil stage, where it remains to combine with water-based liquids later on to form the emulsion (the point just before the oil just starts to separate). If garam masala (or any strongly aromatic spice (think wood here!) is added at the end the essential oils will float on top of the gravy and be carried away by the bubbles of steam (much like salt is carried into the air at the seaside by wind and waves, salt being non-volatile, of course). The habit of adding garam masala at the end of the cooking process is quite modern, and not to be recommended, especially if bought gm is used, as these contain a high percentage of other (cheaper) spices like coriander. It is then not cooked, and can taste raw.

- I've tried adding fenugreek seeds, but found that it had little or no impact on the overall flavor -- but that fenugreek leaves added a lot (although this was specifically suggested for British curries) -- would adding fenugreek leaves at the end be acceptable, instead of fenugreek seeds?

The seeds need to be crushed before they impart any flavour, and become very bitter on roasting if you are not careful. Dried Methi leaves do impart quite a flavour (espeially if you buy them fresh and dry them yourself) but do not go too well with this dish, I would not add them.

- I've only ever used star anise once, and it was so exceptionally strong; it completely overpowered and ruined the dish. Would it be okay to just take a tiny portion of a star anise, rather than a whole one?

yes, quite right, only a little is used, say one of the star's segments, remove the seed.

On roasting the whole spices, okay, I'll definitely do that. One part of the Betty Crocker book that I still trust, is the description of spices, and it says spices can have several quite different flavors, depending on whether they are used whole, ground, roasted whole, roasted whole and the ground etc. and I find cumin particularly overwhelming when ground, so roasting it first (along with coriander) should be very interesting.

Most aromatic spices (the ones in garam masala) don't change much on roasting, (they are powerful enough!!) but coriander goes through a chemical change, and cumin does take-on a deeper flavour. There is a mixture of coriander and cumin (strangely called dhania/jeera!) that has the two spices ground together, its supposed to produce a different flavour, but I have yet to be convinced of that.

HTH
cheers
Waaza

[touaregsand]

Waaza-

I don't really have much to add here at the moment. Just wanted to let you know that I am enjoying your informative posts.

Edited by touaregsand, 09 May 2005 - 10:17 PM.

[scott123]

You state, quite correctly IMHO, that 'golden onions' take much longer than 5 minutes to cook, and I would agree, depending on temperatures it can take 15 to 20 minutes. Now, what do you think of cookbooks (and celebrity chefs for that matter) who say differently? Does it instil confidence?

There are two variables in this scenario that allow onions to become 'golden' in 5 minutes- heat and quantity of oil. If you've got some serious restaurant-style BTUs being cranked out and use a very liberal amount of oil, 5 minute golden onions are a piece of cake. If you ever watch these celebrity chefs saute onions, invariably the oil is decanted into the pan in multiple glugs. If the onions aren't swimming in oil, then yes, 20 minutes, minimum.

[scott123]

(I do know that "British Indian" food isn't the "real deal," any more than Indian food served in American restaurants is (or for that sake, Mexican or Chinese foods served in the US -- or anywhere else in the world, outside India, Mexico or China, respectively).

I disagree. There are certain dishes/combinations that you won't find people eating very much on the subcontinent, but most of the food you find in UK and American restaurants is authentic. I'm excluding the restaurants of Rusholme because I'm not familiar with them, but most of the places I've been have been very authentic.

Dal can have variations, but it's not that different here or in India. Saag, some places use mustard greens, some don't, some temper the ghee, some use cream, but again, the saag here is not that different than what you might find in India. Paneer, same stuff. Naan, same, Chapati, same. Rogan Gosh, same. Chicken tikka, butter chicken, malai kofta, rice pulao, aloo ghobi, same, same, same, same, same, same. Variations, for sure, but basically the same dishes you'd find in Northwest India.

So, what's different? Well, chicken tikka masala (CTM) is 'supposed' to be a completely foreign 'invention,' a point which I've seen very eloquently debated within these cyberwalls. Besides that, what have you got? There's certainly nothing bordering the lack of aunthenticity of something like chicken chow mein.

These dishes stem from one of the world's greatest cuisines. They were phenomenal during pre-colonial times and they made the trip unscathed. A saavy restauranter isn't going to mess with perfection. Restaurants take certain shortcuts like using gravy bases and they doctor up the food with stuff like MSG, but I wouldn't go as far as to call Indian restaurant food 'inauthentic.'

[Pan]

[...]So, what's different? Well, chicken tikka masala (CTM) is 'supposed' to be a completely foreign 'invention,' a point which I've seen very eloquently debated within these cyberwalls. Besides that, what have you got? There's certainly nothing bordering the lack of aunthenticity of something like chicken chow mein.[...]

Chow mein is a real Chinese dish, too -- it just depends on how it's made. Next time you're in New York, consider trying the Beef and Chinese Broccoli Chow Mein at Congee Village. That's real Chinese food for Chinese people (though we non-Asians eat it, too). But now, back to our show...

[touaregsand]

You state, quite correctly IMHO, that 'golden onions' take much longer than 5 minutes to cook, and I would agree, depending on temperatures it can take 15 to 20 minutes. Now, what do you think of cookbooks (and celebrity chefs for that matter) who say differently? Does it instil confidence?

There are two variables in this scenario that allow onions to become 'golden' in 5 minutes- heat and quantity of oil. If you've got some serious restaurant-style BTUs being cranked out and use a very liberal amount of oil, 5 minute golden onions are a piece of cake. If you ever watch these celebrity chefs saute onions, invariably the oil is decanted into the pan in multiple glugs. If the onions aren't swimming in oil, then yes, 20 minutes, minimum.

The traditional home kitchens in Asia and Africa had some serious heat.

[Carlovski]

Since the 'secret' ingredient in a lot of CTM recipes is cream of tomato soup I'm not completely taken with it's authenticity - but it can be remarkably tasty, and my mum likes it so I'm not too bothered.
On saying that it is a fairly moot point to discuss authenticity - you can't compare fast food or restaurant cooking to home cooking - The fact is 90% of dishes served in uk indian restaurants at least involve adding pre cooked meat/vegetables to a a curry gravy - a necessity for a restaurant offering 20 odd different dishes, each available with chicken/lamb/beef/vegetable etc.

Interestingly with UK indian food you do get regional variations - almost everywhere in Manchester (Except possibly rusholme, which as I mentioned is quite different) they do a dish called samba/samber (Nothing to do with a sambhar btw) which is a medium spiced curry made with lentils but with a strong lemon flavour. I've never seen it outside of Manchester though.
For what I imagine is slightly more authentic food most cities with any sort of Indian population have cafe/canteen style places which have a handful of dishes bubbling away, usually with a daily special (There are quite a few in the northen quarter of Manchester) you can normally get 2 or 3 dishes plus rice or rotis for about £3, and the food is always good (Although my Dad used to complain the food wasn't very hot, either spice or temperature wise)

[waaza]

scott123

There are two variables in this scenario that allow onions to become 'golden' in 5 minutes- heat and quantity of oil. If you've got some serious restaurant-style BTUs being cranked out and use a very liberal amount of oil, 5 minute golden onions are a piece of cake. If you ever watch these celebrity chefs saute onions, invariably the oil is decanted into the pan in multiple glugs. If the onions aren't swimming in oil, then yes, 20 minutes, minimum.

Then I think we are talking about different things. Your hot oil method would produce fried onions (very dark around the extremities) whereas 'golden onions' are just that, they are not brown, and have very little water in them. This is important. We do not want the fried onion flavour or any water, as the next stage in the process must be done in oil. Sautéed onions contain too much water, with the consequences mentioned in a posting above. Golden onions can only be produced by gentle heat, there is no simple way around this, which is one reason why pukka curries take so long to cook, but as you say, why mess with perfection?

I disagree. There are certain dishes/combinations that you won't find people eating very much on the subcontinent, but most of the food you find in UK and American restaurants is authentic. I'm excluding the restaurants of Rusholme because I'm not familiar with them, but most of the places I've been have been very authentic.

Dal can have variations, but it's not that different here or in India. Saag, some places use mustard greens, some don't, some temper the ghee, some use cream, but again, the saag here is not that different than what you might find in India. Paneer, same stuff. Naan, same, Chapati, same. Rogan Gosh, same. Chicken tikka, butter chicken, malai kofta, rice pulao, aloo ghobi, same, same, same, same, same, same. Variations, for sure, but basically the same dishes you'd find in Northwest India.

You make a good point, its not all the dishes that are suspect, just those which are made from 'meat and sauce'. So dhals and bread and others are very similar, though they generally are simple and can't really be changed very much.
Saag, of course, means greens in general, so mustard greens and kholrabi/turnip tops are all acceptable, palak suggests just spinach, though there are several kinds in India.
What I (and others) are saying is that the 'meat and sauce' dishes that cover 90% of a typical 'curry house' menu are no more than that; a meat of your choosing (re!)heated with some of the base sauce and a few extras thrown in (like spices and veg or lentils). This is neither traditional Indian cooking practice or particularly appetising, to some of us. Each meat dish has its own (maybe?) unique mode of preparation, and along with different spices and other ingredients, help produce unique flavours. Not so the 'curry house specials' which, in my experience, taste so similar.

So, to take an example you mention, rogan josh (and it is josh and not gosh, josh meaning heat/warming, and gosh, usually spelt gosht, meaning meat, usually lamb, …your rogan gosht would transliterate to "fatty meat" ) is made using a long slow braise, and is thought of as a korma, meaning a braised dish (and not sweet mild dish with coconut!). It is not a quick 'fry and a dollop of sauce' with tomatoes (to sub for the red colour) dish, no way. Chicken tikka is just chic bits on a stick, so not really much to mess up there. Butter chicken (originally just that) has had tomato and cream added in a pseudo-French fashion, and can be thought of as a (con)fusion dish. Rice dishes maybe similar, except the biryani, (which, in its original form, is parboiled rice layered with meat, nuts and spices, with saffron and other fragrances added) which, in a 'curry house' is pilau rice with 'meat of choice' and an insipid 'veg curry' which seems to be the same everywhere I've been.

These dishes stem from one of the world's greatest cuisines. They were phenomenal during pre-colonial times and they made the trip unscathed. A saavy restauranter isn't going to mess with perfection. Restaurants take certain shortcuts like using gravy bases and they doctor up the food with stuff like MSG, but I wouldn't go as far as to call Indian restaurant food 'inauthentic.'

I would agree 100% about the greatness of the cuisine, IMHO there is nothing better (or more complex). The savvy restauranteur has had to mess with it, so that s/he can serve 'curry' quickly and cheaply, and make a profit, there are other ways, but I'm keeping them secret!

I hope you take this reply in the spirit with which it is intended, that is, just a different point of view.
Cheers
Waaza

[Osho]

Came across an authentic recipe for Vindalho - not 'Vindaloo', which is a frequent mis-spelling.

Here we are:

Ingredients:
1 kg lean pork or chicken, cleaned
Salt to taste
10 dried red chillies/peppers
10 peppercorns
10 cloves garlic

1 inch piece ginger
8 cloves
1 inch piece cinnamon
1 tsp cumin seeds
½ mustard seeds
½ tsp sugar
½ tsp vinegar
2 tbsp oil
½ peg coconut feni
2 medium onions, chopped fine
2 cups water

Method:
Cut the cleaned pork into bite-sized pieces. Apply salt and keep aside. Grind all the spices in the vinegar, adding the ½ tsp sugar. Apply the ground spices to the meat and keep aside for 4 hours.

Heat the oil in the pan on medium heat and add the meat. Stir fry the meat for 5 minutes, then add the chopped onion, coconut feni, rest of the vinegar and the water gradually. Cover the pan and lower heat. Stir cook till meat is tender and the oil rises to the top (approx. 30 minutes).

[muichoi]

Pretty good, simple recipe. There seems a mistake with the amount of vinegar, and 30 mins is enough for chicken but not most cuts of pork. I like neem leaves in my vindaloo.

[waaza]

Pretty good, simple recipe. There seems a mistake with the amount of vinegar, and 30 mins is enough for chicken but not most cuts of pork. I like neem leaves in my vindaloo.

I would say quite a few anomalies, IMHO, muichoi.

Firstly, the name, it is well accepted that the dish is vindaloo, a corruption of the original recipe for vin d’alhos (various spellings) meaning wine/vinegar and garlic (no potatoes). The indigenous Goans adapted the original Portuguese dish, and the name, to give us what we have today, vindaloo.

This is a perfect example of a dish which cannot (IMHO) be used for different meats. It is a pork dish, it is a stew, meaning long slow cooking, under much water based liquid, where the meat is cut into small chunks. To develop the flavours, there must be a bhuno step, because the rich meaty notes are not produced by just simmering the meat. The onions seem just to be boiled, and I think you will find the oil rises to the top almost immediately. And current wisdom suggests that marinating is done with either salt or acid present, but not both. Add salt just before serving, if you have to.

As muichoi points out, the timing is too short for pork, and the amount of vinegar needs to be increased.
cheers
Waaza

[muichoi]

Agreed, Waaza. My shorthand way of apprehending a recipe always assumes such essential steps, but of course they should be spelt out. It's like the classic western recipe lie saying that the onions should be fried until brown. about five minutes, whereas they really need four hours.

[nickrey]

If you are interested in the history of Indian food, you can't go past Lizzie Collingham's book "Curry: A tale of Cooks and Conquerors."

The bottom line of this book is that "traditional" Indian food has been modified time and again through invasion and the introduction of new food types and preparation processes. As Waaza has said, Vindaloo is a hybrid of the Portuguese liking for marinated pork with Goan spices.

Collingham states that the dish is traditionally made with pork but that the British best liked it with duck.

The vitality of Indian cuisine as recounted by Collingham suggests that Indian cooking "tradition" has been established only through massive change so I'd steer away from saying that there is a one true Vindaloo: you could obviously use other stewing meats such as chicken thigh meat or blade steak but this would alter both taste and texture and, consequently, the eating experience.

Here is her recipe, which is one of the best I've tried:

2-4 breasts of duck (or 700g stewing pork), cubed

Paste:

2 large dried red chillies
1 tsp cumin seeds
1 tsp poppy seeds
4-6 whole cloves
10 black peppercorns
1/2 tsp turmeric
2 fresh red chillies, finely chopped (recipes vary in the use of chillies: I've seen, and eaten, ones with up to 20 chillies: your mouth goes numb and you can't taste much else of the dish but it's a matter of personal taste)
1 tbsp palm or wine vinegar (palm gives a more authentic Goan taste)
1 tbsp tamarind paste
large clove of garlic, mashed
2cm piece of fresh ginger, peeled and finely grated

Method:

In a cast-iron pan dry roast the dried chillies, cumin seeds, poppy seeds, cloves, peppercorns, and turmeric for 1-2 minutes. Grind these spices into a fine powder (some use a coffee grinder for this, but you cannot grind coffee in it ever again; or use a mortar and pestle). Put in a bowl with the fresh red chillies, wine vinegar, tamarind, ginger, and garlic and mix to a paste.

Add the meat and mix again. Make sure all the pieces of duck (or pork) are coated in the marinade. Cover and leave in the fridge overnight.

Sauce

4-6 tbsp vegetable oil
1 tsp black mustard seeds
2 cm (1 inch) cinnamon stick
1 large onion, finely chopped
300 ml (1/2 pint) water
salt to taste
pinch of jaggery (palm sugar, again for a Goan taste) or soft brown sugar
a few curry leaves, crumbled

Method

The next day, heat the oil in a large pan and when hot add the mustard seeds and cinnamon stick.

When the mustard seeds begin to pop, add the onions and fry over a medium heat until they begin to brown. Add the meat and its marinade and saute until the pieces are browned. Add the water and a pinch of salt to taste.

Cover, turn down the heat and simmer for about 10 minutes for duck or 20 minutes for pork.

Remove the lid, keep heat very low and simmer gently until meat is tender (about 30 minutes with duck, an hour with pork) and the sauce is thick (you may need to add a little more water to prevent burning).

When the meat is tender, add the sugar (palm or soft brown) and the crumbled curry leaves and simmer for another 3 minutes. Then serve.

Hope you enjoy it (and the book)

Cheers from Australia

[waaza]

If you are interested in the history of Indian food, you can't go past Lizzie Collingham's book "Curry: A tale of Cooks and Conquerors."

The bottom line of this book is that "traditional" Indian food has been modified time and again through invasion and the introduction of new food types and preparation processes. As Waaza has said, Vindaloo is a hybrid of the Portuguese liking for marinated pork with Goan spices.

Collingham states that the dish is traditionally made with pork but that the British best liked it with duck.

The vitality of Indian cuisine as recounted by Collingham suggests that Indian cooking "tradition" has been established only through massive change so I'd steer away from saying that there is a one true Vindaloo: you could obviously use other stewing meats such as chicken thigh meat or blade steak but this would alter both taste and texture and, consequently, the eating experience.

snip

I have a signed copy of the book, and a good read it is too.

I don't recall I said that there was one true vindaloo [recipe], my point was that it should be made with pork, or other strong tasting meat (see up thread, I mention others). The point is that there are very strong flavours in this dish, and other meats, such as chicken, and even lamb would be swamped by those spices. Indian dishes are usually very carefully cooked with subtle spicing, so as to enhance the flavours in the dish, certainly not to cover up any enjoyment of the meat or veg. If that was the intention, we would all be eating quorn .

I would agree that the cuisine of India (and most other places, today and in history) have been developed, influenced, even erroded by other cultures. Witness the widespread incorporation of tomatoes and potatoes in Indian dishes, and the ubiquitous use of coriander leaf garnish, or the universal sprinkling of garam masala at the end of cooking, as if given a blessing, though this may be appropriate in some cases

You may argue that, like a language, cuisines are forever changing, evolving, and that they are dynamic. I would have to agree, but then, I would also state that I believe the past is always worth preserving. Without a firm knowledge base, development can be very cyclical

cheers
Waaza

[nickrey]

I have heard that the English pork is full of flavour and strong tasting.

Australia, blessed though it is with much wonderful produce, has fairly bland tasting pork (apart from a few exceptions such as Bangalow pork).

Having not tried it with duck, it may be the next excursion but I'll be sure to try the pork version next time I'm in the UK. :)

Cheers

[ushnishas]

sorry - mistake

Edited by ushnishas, 22 June 2008 - 02:04 AM.

[waaza]

I have heard that the English pork is full of flavour and strong tasting.

Australia, blessed though it is with much wonderful produce, has fairly bland tasting pork (apart from a few exceptions such as Bangalow pork).

Having not tried it with duck, it may be the next excursion but I'll be sure to try the pork version next time I'm in the UK. :)

Cheers

I would say most of the pork (if British, but also imported) is fairly bland, certainly less flavoursome than local lamb, and I would recommend anyone contemplating a true vindaloo to consider a rare breed source of pork.

In Oz, you have 'roo or even emu. The meat needs to be a little tough, so that the long slow stewing takes its toll on the meat and renders it tender; leg meat would be prefered for this. If using duck, you will have to watch the stewing times very carefully, try a male bird if you can.
cheers
Waaza