46 replies to this topic

[argh_01]

Hi folks,

Straightforward request, really: what is the best value chocolatier in NYC?

At the bottom of the list, I gather, is Godiva.

I also know that there are a lot of really good chocolatiers (La Maison, Payard, Torres, etc.) but which is best for someone who loves excellent quality chocolate, but hasn't got a fortune to spend on it?

Thanks,


Anthony

[TrishCT]

If I were going to be totally honest, I'd say Lindt, because for some reason, Lindt's chocolate (particularly their truffle balls) are very well liked and Lindt is very affordable.

Last year I gave as presents, Godiva's special G line, Martine's, and Lindt truffles. The Godiva G was not well received. The Martine's (sold at Bloomingdale's) was very well received (especially the fresh cream chcolates), and the Lindt was regaled with superlatives of pleasure (especially the peanut butter truffles, which the recipient called "orgasmic").

Although Martine's are quite good, they are expensive. Lindt is low end, but enjoyable. La Maison du Chocolat produces a high end chocolate but you pay dearly for it.

[Todd36]

Leonidas at around $26 a pound is the best bang for the buck. Better than Godiva and cheaper to boot. Several locations in Manhattan, three downtown in the financial district and one midtown, on Madison in the 50's I think.

[argh_01]

thanks!

:)

[tsquare]

Leonidas at around $26 a pound is the best bang for the buck.  Better than Godiva and cheaper to boot.  Several locations in Manhattan, three downtown in the financial district and one midtown, on Madison in the 50's I think.

I received a box of these last year - I thought they were awful. I can't recall just why, but my guess is that they were too sweet or creamy for my taste. I like my chocolate dark and with a hint of bitter.

[Daniel]

Hi folks,

Straightforward request, really: what is the best value chocolatier in NYC?

At the bottom of the list, I gather, is Godiva.

I also know that there are a lot of really good chocolatiers (La Maison, Payard, Torres, etc.) but which is best for someone who loves excellent quality chocolate, but hasn't got a fortune to spend on it?

Thanks,


Anthony

The bottom line is what kind of chocolate are you looking for.. You want a piece, you want powder, you want truffles, a bar for cooking.. You want a glass of hot chocolate... Either way, stay away from the godiva.

[Fat Guy]

Just as a reference point for the discussion that follows, Godiva chocolates -- which most hard-core chocolate lovers think are weak -- purchased at a Godiva store by the individual piece are $37 per pound.

Several years ago I worked on an article about the best chocolates in New York, and before it got published my editor moved on and the publication went into decline so the piece was never published. I did, however, have the opportunity to do extensive comparative tastings of the products from all the major contenders. At the time I might have said Leonidas provides the best value at a reasonable upper middle class price point ($28/pound today), but I do think Leonidas -- while a heck of a lot better than Godiva -- does have some of the same issues as Godiva, namely pandering to the white bread palate with too much sugar and not enough bitterness. I would also have said (and still would say) that La Maison du Chocolat is the best but quite expensive ($60/pound today), although I would rather receive a gift of half a pound of La Maison du Chocolat's chocolates than a pound of Leonidas chocolates. So value is not always so clear cut.

Today there are two options, however, that were not available then.

The first is Jacques Torres. At $43 per pound you get what I would characterize as world class chocolates, 50 pieces in a one-pound box. That's not cheap, but the question was value and I think that's a good value.

The other is not in New York City but, if you have a car and you plan to buy enough chocolates to make a drive out to the suburbs worthwhile, I think this is the way to go: Wegmans Chocolates by Pierre Herme. These chocolates, which Steve Klc has been discussing on the eG Forums since summer of 2002, are made to very high standards with Valrhona chocolate by a couple of people who were trained by Herme. I think they are excellent. And at $33 per pound (a 47-piece assortment), I think they may be the best retail chocolate value out there -- and are also available online.

I say retail because the reality is that retail chocolate prices, across the board, tend towards the outrageous. If you want to exercise a little bit of self-help, then, you also might want to follow up on a lead I got when Chris Broberg (now the pastry chef at Cafe Gray) was working at Petrossian. I was in there one day and they had received a bunch of chocolates manufactured by Valrhona. Not chocolate bars but, rather, actual chocolate candies that were dead ringers for the ones sold by the various high-end chocolate shops. I would not be surprised, if you were able to track down a Valrhona wholesaler and ask about Valrhona's "confectionary collection," to learn that these chocolates -- which are I think primarily sold to hotels and restaurants for use as mignardises -- cost about as much per kilogram as these others cost per pound. That's just a guess.

[Todd36]

Just as a reference point for the discussion that follows, Godiva chocolates --

The first is Jacques Torres. At $43 per pound you get what I would characterize as world class chocolates, 50 pieces in a one-pound box. That's not cheap, but the question was value and I think that's a good value.

I don't like his stuff at all and that recent Chocolate review in Time Out New York had some unkind words about his stuff from I think Robert Linxe.

[chocophile]

Just as a reference point for the discussion that follows, Godiva chocolates --
The first is Jacques Torres. At $43 per pound you get what I would characterize as world class chocolates, 50 pieces in a one-pound box. That's not cheap, but the question was value and I think that's a good value.

I don't like his stuff at all and that recent Chocolate review in Time Out New York had some unkind words about his stuff from I think Robert Linxe.

It was Michel Richart who made the comments in an article in New York magazine.

I have the utmost personal respect for Jacques; he is a great guy who can connect with his audience and in many respects is to pastry what Emeril is to culinary. However, in my opinion, his chocolate could be better than it is, especially given his reputation. One reason is that he does not use the best chocolate (he uses Belcolade). However, and Jacques is very open about this, he is making the chocolate that his audience wants and is willing to pay for. Would he sell more - and make more money - if he made "better" chocolates? Probably not.

High end confections - at any price - are among the most affordable of luxury and gourmet foods. I can go into La Maison du Chocolat and buy half-a-dozen pieces of Robert Linxe's work and pay far less than $10 and probably closer to $5 and really have a great treat and taste experience. If I wanted to go out and taste some Chateau d'Yquem the entry price would be astronomically higher as is the tariff for one of my favorite indulgences, gold-label AIB certified balsamic vinegar.

Leonidas is an inexpensive "mass market" chocolate in Belgium. At about $28/lb retail here in the US, it has a landed cost of no more than $14/lb and a cost of manufacturing of somewhere around $5-7/lb. As someone explained to me recently, in Belgium, Leonidas is the chocolate people buy for themselves but do not buy as gifts. It's typically Belgian in the sense that it's comparatively light and sweet - which of course is why we North Americans tend to like it. It's well made and competent and - for the price - is a pretty good deal. But it can't compare with artisan chocolate because it's not an artisan product.

In the same article referenced above, Martine's was also rated lowly by the tasting panel despite getting raves from almost everyone else. Martine's, in my opinion, is very Belgian which means that it's really light and sweet. I don't particularly like light and sweet confections, so I don't like Martine's.

As for Lindt's Lindor truffles. Read the ingredients label. Irrespective of their mouthfeel (which is pretty good for the price) there are ingredients in there that don't belong in chocolate (and that are there solely to increase shelf stability of the product). One side note is that Ghirardeli and owned by Lindt and is close to four times the size. Lindt does make some nice bars, however, especially for the price.

Wegman's product was created by Pierre Herme and is among the best products in its price range. Certainly better than Leonidas (and not that much more expensive) and much better than the "core" Godiva line (the one sold year-round) while being less expensive. Because of the French influence it tends to be darker and less sweet than most Belgian confections (including the one-Belgian Godiva) which means that a much smaller audience will appreciate it. The jury is divided about Godiva "G" however here I am not going to try to argue with success. They are appealing to the upper end of their core audience, wooing those who fled to other brands back to the fold -- and they are phenomenally successful with it. Is it worth $100/lb? Well, that's up to an individual's taste. Personally, I prefer the work that Norman does for himself, which is also significaly less expensive.

It is a truism that you can't eat the box, but many people identify quality with the Godiva gold ballotin (funnily enough, the ballotin was invented by Jean Neuhaus, founder of Neuhaus, as was the shell-molded truffle the Belgians call a praline), so even though the Wegman product is less expensive and more interesting, it is not perceived to be in the same quality arena by those who are not among the chocolate cognoscenti. Godiva's current Diva ad campaign is great as can be expected by a company with real marketing chops courtesy of parent Campbell Soup.

A better comparison, at least from a sociological perspective is Starbucks. 10 years ago, paying more than $1 for a cup of coffee outside a white linen restaurant or in a hotel was unusual. Today, people think little of plonking down $4 or more at least once a day for their half caf decaf mocha lotta whatever. The same things is true with chocolate. You can walk into a great chocolate store (and there are great chocolate stores here in NY) pay under $5 and walk out with a great experience. It's the "value" angle here that people seem to be missing -- it's not just price.

So - where is the best chocolate in Manhattan? For my money, the best value in chocolate from a price/taste/experience standpoint is Kee's Chocolates down on 80 Thompson St just south of Spring. It's a tiny shop that allows lots of interaction with Kee herself and you can see the stuff being made right there. It's fresh. It's genuine. Pieces are under $2 each (they are not sold by the pound and I haven't weighed them out to get a price/pound) so you can pick up a pair for about the same price as the afternoon caffeine fix from the mega-chain. The lychee-pineapple, creme brulee, passion fruit heart, and praline are among my favorites. What's not over the top is the packaging, which is very understated, and definitely contributes to the relative low cost - you're not paying for a fancy box. Another interesting point, Kee was awarded a 29 for Taste by Zagat. Think of the restaurants that are taste rated in this rather rarified atmosphere and you can see that Kee keeps some very august company.

The point about getting chocolates at wholesale is interesting, if you can, and you want to have a lot of the same kind around. Usually you can't buy less than a pound (a kilo for most imports) and cases are usually not mixed. Cluizel at wholesale, last I looked (early summer 04) was under $20/lb (which makes the $87/lb that Debauve & Gallais charges for it breathtaking). Last I heard, (early summer 03) Jacques was about $22/lb. I don't know where Valrhona is priced these days in part because I don't know how the recent run-up in the value of the Euro is affecting prices. An oft-overlooked domestic source is Garrison Confections. I purchased pieces from Drew (Shotts) in April 04 at wholesale at about $.50 piece and he sold me exact piece counts, not pound weights, which I truly appreciate so I don't overbuy (there are 130 - 180 pieces/kg in many European imports). Drew does great work that largely goes unrecognized. If I lived in Providence still (I attended RISD there in the early 80s) and I could walk into hist store any buy the stuff over the counter, he'd rate not too far below Kee's on the value scale.

:Clay

[lambretta76]

Clay -

Fantastic piece.

Reminds me of an interesting piece I read (note: in full disclosure I must admit that my fiancée wrote this piece) about chocolate storage and aging.

Chocolate "humidor"

I wonder which of these would age gracefully.

In the new year, I will certainly be making the trek out to Jersey for some Wegmans Pierre Hermé chocolates (and some Woo pop to wash it down with.)

Edited by lambretta76, 20 December 2004 - 11:59 AM.

[TrishCT]

Clay, thanks for that interesting post, I'll have to check out Kee's next time I'm in the city... lychee pineapple sounds terrific.

[argh_01]

thanks all for your extensive comments and suggestions, and merry christmas everyone!

[madziast]

chocophile, you hit it on the nail!! Kee's chocolates are the best - in any price category. always fresh, bright flavors. other favorites: champagne truffles, dark chocolate mango green tea mango, cappuccino and Thonpson with a layer of whipped cream over dark chocolate. and dark choc turtles. if you go, do it early in the day for the best selection (it's only her with one helper, she runs out of some flavors at times). she also takes phone orders - i couldn't get any chocolates this week, the store was not open as she was just filling holiday orders!

[Phatlouie07]

jacques torres chocolates is pretty much the only chocolatier i've tried so far in nyc..though i wish that Mary's chocolate of japan would open a store in nyc..their chocolates were very good..never knew wasabi and chocolate can go so good together.

[mascarpone]

Where would I get the best value if I am interested in purchasing two pounds of a) milk chocolate b) semi-sweet chocolate destined for fondue?

Edited by mascarpone, 27 December 2004 - 09:45 AM.

[R Washburn]

Where would I get the best value if I am interested in purchasing two pounds of a) milk chocolate b) semi-sweet chocolate destined for fondue?

Fairway has good prices for Callebaut. 4.99/# for small quantities, but I recently purchased 20kg for $125 ($2.84/#).

Jaques Torres' 1kg bars are $20, but they might be a little pricey for Fondue.

[mascarpone]

Where would I get the best value if I am interested in purchasing two pounds of a) milk chocolate b) semi-sweet chocolate destined for fondue?

Fairway has good prices for Callebaut. 4.99/# for small quantities, but I recently purchased 20kg for $125 ($2.84/#).

Jaques Torres' 1kg bars are $20, but they might be a little pricey for Fondue.

Thanks, R Washburn.

[v. gautam]

here's one more source for relatively decent prices on bulk chocolate:

http://gourmail.com/price.htm

[chocophile]

Where would I get the best value if I am interested in purchasing two pounds of a) milk chocolate b) semi-sweet chocolate destined for fondue?

Fairway has good prices for Callebaut. 4.99/# for small quantities, but I recently purchased 20kg for $125 ($2.84/#).

If you fancy the trip up to Arthur Avenue in the Bronx (you can take the subway) you can get Callebaut in bulk for $4/lb at Teitel Bros. They offer only two varieties, a milk and a semisweet, in slabs by the front register. They'll carve up a chunk and weigh it for you right there. (Also, dried nuts, dried fruits, cheeses, sausages, canned San Marzano tomatoes, and more.)

Of course, if the only reason you go to Arthur Ave is to get chocolate the trip is wasted. Go there with cash (most places don't take cards) and visit Biancardi's (a great butcher), Randazzo's (fish), Tino's (deli on 187th for sandwiches, espresso, olive oils, vinegars, dried pasta), Borgatti's (on 187s, fresh pasta), and make sure to go into the retail market for the produce (Boiano's), pizza (Cafe Mercato), and to watch them hand-roll cigars.

:Clay

[SethG]

Kee's is really a great New York experience. I went there today, and got several different truffles: thai chili, lemon-basil, cappucino, passion fruit, and something else. I've managed to eat them all over the course of the day, and all were really wonderful. The passion fruit is really intense, but I think the thai chili was my favorite. The spiciness is subtle-- it really sneaks up on you and complements the chocolate in an unexpectedly harmonious way. I don't think any of these flavors are revolutionary; I know Torres does a passion fruit thing and Pierre Herme uses slivers of habernero and regularly combines lemon and chocolate. But these were really well executed.

Her work space occupies the same floor area as the retail-- the whole shop can't be much more than 8 x 15 feet. They do all of their tempering etc. on a single burner that sits just a couple feet from the display case, and I only noticed one mini-fridge. Kee and her helper must work with extreme diligence at cleaning as they go-- the burner and its stand were spotless and I didn't see so much as a drop of chocolate on the floor or on Kee or her helper. And this was while Kee was continuing to pour chocolate into molds at about 1:00 in the afternoon.

Each piece is $1.75.

[Pan]

My brother and I got six chocolates at Kee yesterday afternoon (for $10). We both enjoyed the experience, but my brother had some criticisms of the chocolates that I consider meritorious. So first of all, we enjoyed speaking with Kee and her assistants, and we respect the artisanal chocolates. Here's what we got:

Two yuzu chocolates
One each of:
Passion fruit
Black sesame
Coconut
Tiramisu

My brother liked the yuzu best because it was the subtlest fruit taste and didn't overpower the chocolate. I found the yuzu a somewhat strange taste and would have preferred kumquat or mandarin orange.

I loved the taste of the passion fruit, but my brother pointed out that the taste of the fruit overpowered the chocolate taste. I had to agree that the chocolate taste was a lot weaker than the passion fruit taste from that terrific puree.

I got the black sesame because it was different. It was very pleasant, but I have to agree with my brother that the chocolate was so overpowered by the taste of the crackly black sesame that the dessert might have tasted pretty similar if it had had a mere cream base.

The coconut chocolate was delicious, with plenty of excellent quality dried coconut (all Kee's ingredients are of course excellent). I think my brother may have felt that the chocolate was somewhat overpowered in that one too, but I would get it again.

He felt the tiramisu was the most traditional item we got and a good truffle.

Another more general criticism my brother made was that there was some graininess in the texture of the truffles, and that in some cases, he would have rather had more chocolate and less ganache.

I hope no-one feels that these criticisms amount to any kind of attempt to trash the place. These are high-level criticisms of a chocolatiere who is using terrific ingredients and making a high-quality product. If I had gotten the chocolates by myself, I might have been content to simply enjoy all of them, but I do think that when dealing with this high a level of craftsmanship, criticisms like the ones my brother made are reasonable. I suspect some of you will strongly disagree, but as they say, that's what makes horseracing.

[tsquare]

Does your brother approve of anyone's chocolate?

[SethG]

Pan, you and I went to Kee's on different days, but I presume the chocolates we had were virtually the same. I'm obviously neither as experienced or sophisticated as your brother in my approach to chocolate. But I disagree with a few of his opinions. I didn't detect any sort of graininess or other technichal deficiency in the chocolates. And apart from the passion fruit, I would say that what I tried was really quite balanced-- I think the Yuzu was the chocolate I couldn't remember that I had.

As to the passion fruit, I think your brother's criticism is entirely beside the point. The passion fruit flavor is admittedly huge-- remarkably so, and by design. To criticize this achievement as out of balance with the chocolate is, to my mind, a little too formal. It may not be "correct," but I'm confident Kee knows exactly what she's doing and has made an artistic judgment about it. Any customer can agree or disagree with her decision-- that's what taste is all about. I think she made the right choice. But to criticize that chocolate as out of balance seems to me akin to saying that rules can never be broken.

[madziast]

enjoying the passion fruit as i type. coconut and black sesame are waiting patiently for their turn. i can probably count days sans Kee's chocolates in the past year and a half on my fingers. ok, possibly toes, too. my point is - i've eaten her chocolates almost every day for well over a year now. it is my absolute favorite but i don't love all the flavors and i don't expect to. i have never thought that flavors obscured the taste of chocolate, i actually enjoy the combinations and think they add rather than overpower. even now, after the passionfruit is gone, there is still chocolate aftertaste with a little tang from passionfruit. i did, on occasion, experience a bit of graininess in the texture, which i think happens when they are very busy and her assistants are more involved in the production. the batch bought on monday is beautifully smooth but one right before Thanksgiving had a couple of grainy ones.

next time, if there is next time, try the champagne and creme brulee (no ganache, just cream). and the turtles, the turtles!

[Pan]

Does your brother approve of anyone's chocolate?

I could ask him later if you really want to know. I take it you think that Kee's chocolates are always 100% perfect and no criticism is ever reasonable?

Madziast, thanks a lot for the recommendations.

[tsquare]

Does your brother approve of anyone's chocolate?

I could ask him later if you really want to know. I take it you think that Kee's chocolates are always 100% perfect and no criticism is ever reasonable?

Never had the pleasure to taste Kee's (lots of See's but that's a whole different (and pedestrian) story - and thread.) I was just a bit amazed at the level of criticism and wondered if he had approved of any chocolates? If so, which so that others may have the benefit of his fine palate. I don't recall you referring to him in the many posts I've enjoyed from your hand - but I probably just missed those.

[Pan]

No, you didn't miss them. My brother lives in California, so I don't see him that often. As a matter of fact, he went back there today. If he emails a response to your question, I'll relay it.

Sorry for reacting to your post as if it were snide.

[chocophile]

I could ask him later if you really want to know. I take it you think that Kee's chocolates are always 100% perfect and no criticism is ever reasonable?  

PAN, A very cogent observation. The hardest thing to do as a chocolatier is to do consistently good work -- consistently. Not all of Kee's flavors work for me but that's as much where I am coming from as anything else. From an objective standpoint she does manage to get well-balanced flavors that harmonize with the taste of the chocolate she uses. That's not to say that each batch is identical and sometimes the balance of flavors varies.

I bought a fair amount of stuff from Kee for corporate gifting over the holidays and noticed a lot more pinholes in the molds than normal. This is no doubt due to the much higher than normal volume of production, but it's hitting everything dead on day in and day out that separates merely very good from the great. Kee is very good at what she does, but she's not in the company of people the likes of Hevin, Bernachon, and Linxe, among others.

:Clay

[madziast]

[I bought a fair amount of stuff from Kee for corporate gifting over the holidays and noticed a lot more pinholes in the molds than normal. This is no doubt due to the much higher than normal volume of production, but it's hitting everything dead on day in and day out that separates merely very good from the great. Kee is very good at what she does, but she's not in the company of people the likes of Hevin, Bernachon, and Linxe, among others.

:Clay

the week of xmas, Kee was closed for retail, just filling holiday orders. of course, i would love nothing more than for the store to be tiny and all chocolates crafted personally by Kee with adequate time and attention but i imagine it's hard to make a living this way. i mean, how many $1.75 chocolates do you have to make--and sell-- to cover your business and living expenses? not to mention the fact that there is a constant traffic into the store, people chatting with her (i'm certainly guilty of that), etc., which takes time from her chocolate making. it's still just her and she still makes the chocolates herself. i know that it's been hard for her to find good help and it's only been in recent months that i have seen a steady presence of one or two assistants.

from what i've seen, holidays at Kee's are like Valentine's Day at a restaurant - totally packed, tripling or quadrupling regular business. i don't think she sacrifices much quality (although with volume vs. resources it's unavoidable) but there is also the element of exhaustion - one starts missing bits here and there. i have no doubt that she is overextended at high volume times but i think that it's part of growing pains - getting to the next step where she has adequate space and help to stay as close to perfection as she usually does. i hear she'll be closed mondays in January, good first step to recover.

and when she's not so overwhelmed with basic survival efforts, i hope she will have more time to experiment with new flavors. as i'm eating my Thai chili chocolate, i think she will continue to have something special to offer and grow as chocolatier. maybe having an investor would speed it up.

[Bux]

. . . .
So - where is the best chocolate in Manhattan? For my money, the best value in chocolate from a price/taste/experience standpoint is Kee's Chocolates down on 80 Thompson St just south of Spring. It's a tiny shop that allows lots of interaction with Kee herself and you can see the stuff being made right there. It's fresh. It's genuine. Pieces are under $2 each (they are not sold by the pound and I haven't weighed them out to get a price/pound) so you can pick up a pair for about the same price as the afternoon caffeine fix from the mega-chain. The lychee-pineapple, creme brulee, passion fruit heart, and praline are among my favorites. What's not over the top is the packaging, which is very understated, and definitely contributes to the relative low cost - you're not paying for a fancy box.

Thanks. Although I live in the neighborhood, and that puts me in proximity several relatively new and high end shops, my skepticism has led me to avoid them all. this thread arrived just in time to put a fine finish to our quiet little new year's even dinner. I selected some chocolates and my wife selected one less, although somehow that's not exactly how it worked after dinner. Life is full of little disappointments, I suppose. Next time, I'll add a few for emergencies and people whose stomachs are gibber than their eyes. The selection was very small, at least late in the afternoon of the day before the new year. All were excellent. The passion fruit was not out of balance to my tastes, but the passion fruit was forward with the chocolate playing a more supporting role. I didn't have a problem with that, but it's worth knowing in advance. For what it's worth, Mrs. B felt it was a bit our of balance, but it was higher on her list than mine of chocolates she'd buy again, which may prove that balance is subjective, or that its importance is subjective. The orange was very subtle. I'm not sure I could really taste the orange in the chocolate filling. The yuzu, on the other hand was bright, far more subltle than the passion fruit, but the effect on the palate was similar for me. It was the creaminess of the filling, if not the flavor of the fruit that put the chocolate in the background. For all that, I think they all shared a great delicacy. That delicacy extended to the chilli chocolate, which was something else in terms of chocolates, candies, bonbons, pralines, etc. I thought it was delcate, but I should also warn that there was a long after taste or sense of the hot pepper and that it was perhaps better suited to just one chocolate after dinner, that to a medley of chocolates. It was quite interesting and definitely pleasing, if a bit oddly so. It's well worth trying, but it's not an expected sensation.