108 replies to this topic

[Tepee]

I've always wanted to try doing an icing cage to put over a cake. I thought it looked easy enough from Colette Peter's instructions. So I did as per the instructions. I used a metal bowl, thinly smeared it with shortening, and piped freehand with royal icing and tip #5. The icing consistency I used was very stiff - boy, did my hand hurt! - it felt hard after only 5 minutes. So I left it overnight as instructed. But when I tried to take it off the next day...very gingerly in fact it broke...or rather, shattered, unsalvageable.

Is there a foolproof way of doing this? Please help. I'd love to do this again...great potential in the "impression" department.

Edited by TP(M'sia), 06 July 2004 - 07:06 AM.

[Wendy DeBord]

I find that the strongest royal icing isn't the stiffest. In fact, I think it's just the opposite, the wetter it is- the stronger it will dry. Too much icing sugar weakens the binding properties of the egg.... and on the opposite side if it's too wet it doesn't hold shape well. So you want to reach a happy medium consistancy. If your's felt dry in 5 min. your definately too dry and that handicapped you, it would have been too brittle to handle.

I haven't done this technique in so many years I barely can recall my efforts. If I remember correctly I couldn't get my icing to release from my form/bowl and I wound up covering my bowl with foil to aid in removal. That worked as I recall, but it doesn't give you as lovely of finished product. And you have to get the foil really smooth because the royal creaps under folds and will break when you try to release the foil.

If I was to attempt this today (having more experience under my belt) I would follow Colettes instructions using the oiled bowl, just as you did. Then I'd place it near something warm to loosen up the shortening and I think it should slide off nicely that way. HTH.

[bkeith]

If I was to attempt this today (having more experience under my belt) I would follow Colettes instructions using the oiled bowl, just as you did. Then I'd place it near something warm to loosen up the shortening and I think it should slide off nicely that way. HTH.

That's exactly what I was about to suggest. Let the royal icing harden completely, then aim a blow dryer at the bowl to melt the shortening. Should make it much easier to remove.

Also, use fresh egg whites (not meringue powder or powdered egg whites) and hand-stir the icing. Using a mixer makes it easier, certainly, and makes a fluffier royal icing. But that fluff is air which means less strength and more brittleness. A hand-stirred, fresh-egg white royal icing is stronger than cement.

Egg white in bowl. Squirt of lemon juice to help denature the proteins. Using a fork, stir in powdered sugar a bit (1/2 cup?) at a time until it's all incorporated. Stop adding sugar when you get to a really good piping consistency that will hold its shape without relaxing into undefined blobs.

[Heartsease]

As has been mentioned it sounds like your royal needs to be "wetter" . I won't promise you that this my way is fool proof but it does work and is considerably less stressful. I take whatever I am using for a mold and I cover it very, very tightly with Saran wrap. Tape the Saran securely then pipe onto it and over pipe it with either a smaller tube or the same one. When it is dry very gently turn the bowl/mold over and remove the tape and peel the Saran carefully away from the cage. Usually this works like a charm.

LA

[Tepee]

Oh, thank you, thank you, Wendy, Keith and LA for your tips. Icing cage...here I come!

[Wendy DeBord]

If I'm not mistaken I think I use: (it's a wilton recipe)

3 whites
1 tsp. tartar
1 lb xxxsugar

I ditto using real eggs instead of meringue powder or egg white powder as Keith mentioned........and don't over whip.

Keith have you worked with that new product that's flexible, for piping details? I forgot the name at this moment-but I sure am interested.

[andiesenji]

You might try using a heavy-weight balloon sprayed lightly with release compound.
I used balloons into which I had poured a cup full of BBs before blowing it up to the size I needed, you would need more for a larger balloon.
Once inflated you clip the valve closed with a wood clothes pin and place it with the valve at the bottom on one side, manipulating it until the BBs are spread out, the bottom is flat and the balloon is stable.
After your cage is completely set and dry, hold the valve and gently let the air out by carefully squeezing the clothes pin until the balloon has pulled away from the interior of the cage then let the rest of the air out.
Try it with smaller balloons at first.
I also use balloons to make chocolate bowls.

[chefpeon]

Keith have you worked with that new product that's flexible, for piping details? I forgot the name at this moment-but I sure am interested.

It's called SugarVeil. I have some, but haven't used it yet.

[Tepee]

Thanks, Wendy, for the recipe.

Andie, around 2 years ago (I think) I saw Emeril do a chocolate ball (in the net) using the balloon method too. Cool! Ummm, what's BBs?

[bkeith]

Keith have you worked with that new product that's flexible, for piping details? I forgot the name at this moment-but I sure am interested.

It's called SugarVeil. I have some, but haven't used it yet.

I've seen it, but haven't played with it. I'm not entirely sure I like the look of the finished product, which is probably why I haven't made time to experiment. Maybe after the ICES Convention is done I'll get some play time back.

[chromedome]

Ummm, what's BBs?

BB's are a tiny sort of shot (like small ball bearings) which are used in air rifles. Their purpose, in this application, is to weigh down the balloon and stabilize it. Anything will do, I guess, as long as it is both dense and small enough to pour through the neck of the balloon.

[andiesenji]

Ummm, what's BBs?

BB's are a tiny sort of shot (like small ball bearings) which are used in air rifles. Their purpose, in this application, is to weigh down the balloon and stabilize it. Anything will do, I guess, as long as it is both dense and small enough to pour through the neck of the balloon.

I just stick a funnel into the neck of the balloon and pour in the BBs.

[Tracy K.]

BB-filled balloons, what a great idea!

The best tip ever for royal icing came from a British Sugarcraft magazine...now this is just off-hand, I'd have to go dig in the basement for the exact recipe, but basically when you make the icing, all the ingredients go in a spic-and-span bowl (kitchen-aid-type) and you use the whisk beater. Beat on low as low can go for ages...such as 20 to 30 minutes. No bubbles, no stiffness. Really works. If you need, I'll go dig it up.

Ever thought of making panels on parchment then gluing the pieces together? It wouldn't be completely round/smooth, but would create the same sort of effect. I made a cage to go around a small rose arrangement between tiers of a wedding cake. I made ten, I needed four; when I got to the reception site to assemble the cake, all but four of the lace panels broke. I had just what I needed. Always a good idea to expect breakage, in my opinion....

[andiesenji]

BB-filled balloons, what a great idea!

Believe it or not, my first teacher,(a Hungarian pastry chef that my mother sponsored following the revolution in 1956), told me that he had learned to make pastry cloches or domes, using a (sterilized of course) pig's bladder which had some sand poured into it to weight it before inflating.
I wish I had thought to write down all the tips and techniques he taught me. I recall some but many have erased themselves from my memory.

He made one layered creation with thin sheets of puff pastry, blind-baked between two sheet pans, then assembled into a stack layered with pastry cream and fruit pureés then topped with whipped cream that was simply ambrosial. He also did a choux paste horn into which he poured melted chocolate then quickly poured it out again so the horn had a chocolate lining before it was filled with pastry cream.

[JacqueOH]

I understand that if you heat egg whites it makes them food safe (is it to 140 or 160 degrees? now I can't remember). But I rarely see this suggested in recipes that use raw egg whites, such as meringues and royal icing. Question: why is it not standard procedure to heat egg whites to make them food safe? Does it degrade the egg whites or compromise the end product?

I've heard of pasteurized eggs, but I haven't seen them in my grocery store.

The reason I'm wondering is because I have recently switched to making royal icing with egg whites rather than meringue powder because it decorates soooo much nicer for me.

I decorate cakes and cookies as a hobby, but occasionally sell a few. I don't worry so much about my family and egg whites, but I'm not comfortable when it comes to other folks.

What are your thoughts on egg whites and food safety?

Thanks!

[M. Lucia]

My mom always made royal icing with egg whites and as I child I ate gobs of it, so I have no qualms about the stuff. From what I understand egg whites are very stable and are much less likely to carry any bacteria (that would be in the yolk). Leave 'em out uncovered for days, you'd be fine.

Though I am not a pastry chef, I would guess most pc's use raw egg whites (correct me if I'm wrong). Heating egg whites does change their chemical structure, but I would note that in an Italian meringue or in marshmallows the egg whites are cooked by the hot syrup.
So, I wouldn't worry about it (of course, I wouldn't advertise raw egg either).

[Patrick S]

I think you're right M. Lucia. Ive heard from several PCs on this board that they use raw whites all the time. Jacque, I spent a while thinking about 'safe' ways to use whites in recipes where they're normally used raw. I finally came to the conclusion that the risk of salmonellosis is so miniscule that I will just raw whites and not worry about it. In 1997, for instance, there were only like 17 Salmonellosis outbreaks linked to shell eggs in the entire US.

But if you would rather go the extra mile and not have any worry, there are ways to heat whites to 140+ but you usually have to mix them with sugar and more liquid so they dont cook. So, I dont know how you'd do that for a royal icing. You can use powdered pasteurized whites ('Just Whites'), but if you dont like meringue powder, you probably wont like that product either. Ive heard of but havent used a liquid pasteurized white product called eggology. This would probably be ideal for you, because you could use it just like regular whites.

[chromedome]

Like any other bacteria, salmonella requires a certain degree of moisture in order to reproduce. Royal icing hardens up dry as a bone, leaving any pathogens in a dormant state.

It's the same as any other dried food, really. Think "cake jerky."

[Wendy DeBord]

I do use pasturized whites in my royal icing. I do occasionally use unpasturized whites in recipes, but I find myself still always concerned that what I'm making is safe. If given the option (meaning it won't effect my recipe negatively) I'd always choose pasturized over non, just for safety since I work for others.

What country do you live in JacqueOH?

In the states, in my area (Chicagoland) all the stores sell pasturized eggs. They come in cartons in the dairy case. The fact that they are pasturized isn't how they are labeled so you have to pick them up to notice that fact. But they sell cartons of whites, cartons of fake egg stuff all in the same area. You can also buy dried egg whites in the grocery stores now, and they are pasturized.

[alligande]

Be carefull of pasteurized egg whites in the grocery stores, most do not beat well and will state on the box that they cant be used for soufel or meringue. I have yet to find the type that does in a local market.
On the subject of food safety I will feed myself and husband uncooked egg products but will not for a paying customer (or even a dinner guest) I guess writng those liabilty insurance checks made me paranoid.
karen

[JacqueOH]

Thank you so much everyone. I didn't realize there was so much to know about egg whites (and how much I didn't know).

I will experiment with some of the egg white options and see if it affects my results.

I'm here in the US, Ohio actually. I may check to see if any of the other grocery stores in my area carry the pasteurized eggs. Out of curiousity.

Thanks again... this board is such a goldmine of information.

[M. Lucia]

In my area they sell jugs called "Just Whites." They are good quality but because of the pasteurization they don't really whip (which is what most pasteurized egg products say in tiny print on their labels).

[Patrick S]

You sure you're not thinking of 'All Whites'? I've used a powdered white called 'Just Whites', made by Deb El, which whip pretty good. 'All Whites' is a liquid white that doesnt whip.

Edited by Patrick S, 30 January 2005 - 07:55 PM.

[Wendy DeBord]

To whip a meringue the whites matter. But to make royal icing which is all xxxsugar with whites to bind..........they don't have to be whites that whip decently.

By the way this is the recipe I use for royal icing.

3 whites
1 tsp. cream of tartar
1 lbs of xxxsugar

[mkfradin]

I also use egg whites (I buy them in a big bucket, pasteurized). But I have noticed that meringue powder royal will always stay white, whereas royal from egg whites tends to splotch out after a few days. It doesn't happen all the time, but enough that if I want a pristine white frosting, I always use meringue.

[JacqueOH]

Thanks for the input mkfradin, I didn't know that. And thanks for the recipe Wendy. I had been using Colette Peters recipe, which only takes 2 egg whites to a pound of powd. sugar, but also uses 2 teaspoons of water and 1/2 tsp. cream of tartar. I'll try yours out. BTW, when you say xxxsugar, is that a generic term for powdered sugar? On my cake board, we've gotten into a few discussions about 6X and 10X powdered sugar, so I don't know if xxxsugar is the same or something different.

Patrick and M.Lucia... now you've got me curious and I'm going to try both to see what happens.

Gee, I didn't realize the can of worms I'd get myself into. But I love experimenting and always trying to find something better. Thanks again... there's so much to learn on this board.

[JSkilling]

I know somewhere there was a discussion of which was better for royal icing but I can't remember the outcome or if there was a preference one way or the other. I use meringue powder because it's easier and I don't want to take a chance with a customer on egg whites. For home I don't care and we all eat egg products that are not cooked up to temp. As Anne said, "it's only my family!"

[bkeith]

I know somewhere there was a discussion of which was better for royal icing but I can't remember the outcome or if there was a preference one way or the other.  I use meringue powder because it's easier and I don't want to take a chance with a customer on egg whites.  For home I don't care and we all eat egg products that are not cooked up to temp.  As Anne said, "it's only my family!"   

The main differences I've found are that meringue powder royal can be rebeaten once it gets over-relaxed - fresh egg white royal can't. I've never gotten it back to "day 1" strength, but I've revived some batches this way.

But fresh egg white royal is much stronger, especially if it's hand-stirred rather than made on a mixer. I prefer it for large runouts and lace pieces, neither of which is likely to be eaten anyway.

[CompassRose]

In my area they sell jugs called "Just Whites." They are good quality but because of the pasteurization they don't really whip (which is what most pasteurized egg products say in tiny print on their labels).

And yet I've never had a problem making angel food cake or even meringues with Just Whites (blue box?) bought here in Ontario -- even though the label says the same thing!

I do find it helps to leave them out on the counter for about fifteen or twenty minutes to take the chill off. But they whip perfectly fine and stiff; slightly less volume, perhaps, but not distressingly so.

Edited by CompassRose, 02 February 2005 - 08:50 AM.

[JacqueOH]

I agree that egg white royal makes stronger runout pieces. That's one thing I like about it. I never thought to beat it by hand though. Ugh! I'm not sure I'd be up to that

After the discussion about the "whipability" I think I'll do some experimenting this weekend and try to see which whites whip the best for me. You've all got me curious.

I got these. The Just whites are powdered, found in the baking aisle. All Whites are liquid, found in the refrigerator section. I couldn't find pasteurized eggs at Kroger, but will check the other two local stores.



CompassRose - Do you refrigerate your Just Whites?

edited to try to increase picture size... still working on it OK, think I got it. Don't you just love us newbies?

Edited by JacqueOH, 02 February 2005 - 02:53 PM.