8 replies to this topic

[mktye]

Hello,

I make sourdough at least once a week. During the winter I am very happy with my results in regard to flavor, texture and crust. However, during the summer, I have a hard time getting a nice crust with good "ears" at the slashes.

I realize this is most likely due to the shorter final rise time because of the considerably higher ambient temperature in my kitchen during the summer. I've tried putting the loaves in couches for the final rise, but it they do not seem to turn out much different than the free-standing risen loaves. Other than retarding the final rise in a cooler environment, is there anything else I can do for a better crust?

Thank you for any assistance.

[James MacGuire]

You sound as though you are pretty much on the right track. Congratulations.
Smaller batches of dough are more easily victims to the vicissitudes of ambient temperature. A few suggestions:

- Have you been calculation the water temperature neede to produce a dough at the desired temperature? you could alway try multiplying the ideal dough temperature ( let's call it 74o F) by 4, and then apply the following formula:


296 minus ( Flour Temp + Levain Temp+Room temp)= water temp

for eample, on a hot day

296 minus ( 80+ 78+79) = 59o water temperature.

Remember that this assumes hand kneading. Using a machine, the heat from the friction of mixing must be factored in.

A lot of people at home are afraid to use cool/cold water in the summer, but all that counts is the proper dough temperature by the end of kneading.

- Something else you could do is shape the loaves, put them on couches and ferment at room temperature for about 90 minutes, and finish the process in the fridge.

Best of luck to you

James

[andiesenji]

I have been setting the steam function in my oven for the first 10 minutes after loading the oven.
Recently the crust on either side of the diagonal slashes has been curling up and out like a leaf instead of simply splitting. If I do a center cut it also curls back and the center of the loaf rises through the split into a ridge.
It isn't unattractive and the crumb is open which is the way I like it, but I am mystified as to the change in the way these loaves are behaving. I am using the same high protein flour, the same yeast, same formula, etc.
I have been baking bread in this oven for several years and it bothers me that I can't figure out what has changed.

[mktye]

Mr. MacGuire, thank you so much for your thoughtful answer.

Have you been calculation the water temperature needed to produce a dough at the desired temperature?

No, because this time of year, I usually make a sponge and put it in the refrigerator overnight. I do not add any additional water the next day, so it is still pretty chilled by the time I knead in the remainder of the flour. But that does bring up a variable I had not previously considered -- in the winter, I typically leave the sponge at room temperature and for a shorter time. Hmmm, more to ponder.

I have had better luck with the last couple of batches. Instead of covering them during the final proof (with an acrylic box), I've been leaving them uncovered. A bit higher percentage of water in the dough has also seemed to help with the crust. Not quite there, but getting better.

Something else you could do is shape the loaves, put them on couches and ferment at room temperature for about 90 minutes, and finish the process in the fridge.

I suspect this is the best solution. Time to start looking for a used refrigerator that can be dedicated to retarding dough (I've been wanting one for a while now, but now I have an "official" reason! ).

Recently the crust on either side of the diagonal slashes has been curling up and out like a leaf instead of simply splitting. If I do a center cut it also curls back and the center of the loaf rises through the split into a ridge.

I've also seen that with my sourdough loaves on occasion. In my case, it seems to happen when the starter/dough is greatly favoring the yeast rather than the lactobacilli. When it has occured, all of the proofing went quickly (in sourdough terms) and the resulting bread was less acidic tasting (not favored in my household that grew up eating San Francisco sourdough). Under-proofing? Over-proofing? ??? I am also interested in Mr. MacGuire's thoughts on this, since I'd like to know the mechanics behind this outcome.

I have been baking bread in this oven for several years and it bothers me that I can't figure out what has changed.

The wild (but fun) world of bread baking!

[andiesenji]

Recently the crust on either side of the diagonal slashes has been curling up and out like a leaf instead of simply splitting. If I do a center cut it also curls back and the center of the loaf rises through the split into a ridge.

I've also seen that with my sourdough loaves on occasion. In my case, it seems to happen when the starter/dough is greatly favoring the yeast rather than the lactobacilli. When it has occured, all of the proofing went quickly (in sourdough terms) and the resulting bread was less acidic tasting (not favored in my household that grew up eating San Francisco sourdough). Under-proofing? Over-proofing? ??? I am also interested in Mr. MacGuire's thoughts on this, since I'd like to know the mechanics behind this outcome.

I have been baking bread in this oven for several years and it bothers me that I can't figure out what has changed.

The wild (but fun) world of bread baking!

I should have made it clear that this only happens with sourdoughs and with one particular starter that has behaved itself nicely until this recent activity.
I mistyped when I put in 'yeast'.
I have one of Ed Wood's cultures, the "Bahrain, which is quite sour.
http://www.sourdo.com/
I have two others but they are kept totally separate, to prevent cross-contamination. I wait a minimum of two weeks between batches and before opening one of the containers I run the kitchen exhaust system on high for an hour. This seems to work quite well. I have tested the effects by setting out culture material to "catch" wild yeasts and have no activity in it.
After baking off the loaves I set the system to run on high again for two hours.

The product from the different batches are significantly different. This one is very sour, even more than San Francisco. The French is very mild and the Red Sea culture (the one I have had the longest, is medium sour.

I just ordered two more to see if I like one better than those I have been using.

Perhaps this is just a very active culture and is blowing its top........

[mktye]

andiesenji, it sounds like you have a great method to avoid cross-contamination of your cultures!

As to sourdough that blows its top -- I was able to get my bread to stop doing it by cooling and slowing down the fermentation process and making sure I kept my starter at 100% hydration (weighing while feeding rather than just eyeballing it).

Which did the trick? I am not sure (yes, very bad of me to change two variables at the same time!), but I suspect it was the cooling since it all started when the weather warmed up.

If it is of interest, there was some rather intensive discussion recently at rec.food.sourdough about freezing flour to help cool down the dough. Here is one of the threads.

[andiesenji]

I appreciate your suggestions, this has been rather annoying to me. Having a culture that had behaved as expected for so long, to suddenly have a growth spurt, so to speak, is frustrating.

I have two freezer drawers in my baking area where I keep all flours, grains, seeds, nuts, etc., to keep them fresh as well as pest free.

Because of arthritis, I can no longer work most dough by hand, except for exceptionally slack dough which I work in a dough trough, so I have two AEG mixers that do not work like planetary mixers, they have a roller and scraper that works the dough as the bowl turns. I also have a very old Hobart 12 quart but only use it for very dense or stiff doughs.

I have two refrigrator drawers that have independent controls so I keep one at a higher temp than usual (50 degrees) as it is the one I use for retarding dough.

I made an epi yesterday from dough using this culture and the tips "bloomed" . I should have taken a photo, but the neighbor for whom I made it was waiting to pick it up as soon as it came out of the oven.
I set the steamer for just 2 minutes, thinking it would perhaps lessen the oven spring.

The neighbor loved the way the epi appeared, thought it was very attractive, but it just didn't have the classic look so it was unsatisfactory to me.

When this first began I had my oven calibrated and the tech found it was right on. It is a Blodgett, a workhorse, and I have had no problems with other items.

[mktye]

I appreciate your suggestions, this has been rather annoying to me.  Having a culture that had behaved as expected for so long, to suddenly have a growth spurt, so to speak, is frustrating.

I can understand your frustration. If that happened to me, it would drive me bonkers until I figured it out.

From a microbiological standpoint, I'm always pretty amazed at how constant sourdough cultures remain over time, especially given the less-than-sterile ways they are handled in the kitchen environment. It really says something about the vitality of the yeast and bacilli used for sourdough since they most likely have to fight off "invaders" every time the culture is opened and fed. Plus, they are also battling each other for equilibrium.

If you find a solution or the cause of your "bloom" (I like that term!), I'd really like to know what you discover. Good luck!

[andiesenji]

I believe it is possible my preciious culture has become contaminated. I learned yesterday that a brewery that is just 1/2 mile west of my home began pressure washing and venting their big lagering chambers on May 25. We have prevailing winds from the west and I can often smell the brewery.
It is possible that when they vented the effluvia from the tanks some of the yeast cells took to the air and invaded my culture despite the care I take in keeping it isolated.
The time line is right, I started the first batch that acted differently on May 26 and a second batch on May 28. Also I take all of the culture from the fridge, dump it into a sterilized bowl, feed it and allow it to "work," and then remove part to a sterilized container that goes back into the fridge, thus exposing the entire batch to whatever may have been in the air during the time it was uncovered, while mixing.

Whatever it is, it is very potent. I used it to make English muffins last night and they rose well over the tops of the rings and spread out rather like a squat mushroom shape.
For the second batch I used half the batter and they stayed within the rings.

I think this weeked I will see what kind of effect I get with baking in a "coffee can" - (actually it is an old asparagus steamer with the handle removed.) And I am also going to try using it in some whole grain and fruited breads which usually do not rise well with the sourdough starters.

More later.