28 replies to this topic

[jogoode]

I'm shaking as I write this. I was so scared of diseased meat that I started ordering my steaks burnt and ultimately banished meat from my diet. Now the Times is telling me that I should wash the skin of my melons (because bacteria on the rinds can be transferred to the flesh when cut!?) in 83 changes of water, scrub my tubers with Dial antibacterial soap, and boil my mail-order peaches before I serve them to my grandma. (And I accidentally ingested an entire raw-milk affidelice a few days ago. Am I going to die?)

But seriously, how dangerous is the shigella bacteria? Is this obsessive vegetable-washing a new myth for you to debunk or is its sensible practice something you'd advise? Is the media ever going to stop trying to scare us?

And can you tell us about the time you ate raw sausage?

[Cusina]

My mother has been washing her melons for decades.

You know, I tried, you just can't write that particular idea without double entandre.

But she has. I have openly laughed at her wrestling with a soapy watermelon in the sink. Not only that but she refuses to buy the cut melons at the grocery for fear of contamination. Don't you just hate it when your mother is always right (or at least supported in writing by the NYTimes)? I wonder, are we supposed to wash bananas before we peel them too? Mom never does that.

[Bill Klapp]

JJ, I am a firm believer that Michael Moore got it right in Bowling for Columbine (and nowhere else, by the way). The Times, as well as all other American media, is merely perpetuating the climate of fear that has given us road rage and makes us buy guns and kill each other arbitrarily and senselessly. But it sure does sell newspapers and garner ratings during sweeps weeks! I would prefer to die by my own Casaba...

[jogoode]

JJ, I am a firm believer that Michael Moore got it right in Bowling for Columbine (and nowhere else, by the way). The Times, as well as all other American media, is merely perpetuating the climate of fear that has given us road rage and makes us buy guns and kill each other arbitrarily and senselessly. But it sure does sell newspapers and garner ratings during sweeps weeks! I would prefer to die by my own Casaba...

Making us buy guns, Veggie Wash and Organiclean! And just generally making us buy.

[Pan]

My parents and I have always rinsed melons before cutting them. I see no downside, and the upside is that it gets rid of some dirt and (if any) pesticides.

[docsconz]

Shigella is a dangerous bacteria that can be quite uncomfortable (I speak from personal experience) to say the least and deadly to say the most. While good basic hygeine is a wise thing, I'll add my opinion and that of many others in the medical field that excessive hygiene can be counterproductive. Our immune systems need some exposure in order to work properly. The more fastidious we become the more likely a particular encounter with a pathogen will be significant. Of course that doesn't mean I want to be unnecessarily exposed to shigella or other pathogens. It does mean that small exposures here and there are probably not a bad thing to a non-immunocompromised individual.

Jeffrey, any thoughts on this?

[jogoode]

Salad, the silent killer.

[robyn]

I think you kind of overstated the article. The gist was that a simple washing of raw fruits and vegetables takes care of more than 90% of all potential problems. I wash all raw fruits and vegetables - only takes a minute or two - and what's the downside? Robyn

[jogoode]

I think you kind of overstated the article.  The gist was that a simple washing of raw fruits and vegetables takes care of more than 90% of all potential problems.  I wash all raw fruits and vegetables - only takes a minute or two - and what's the downside?  Robyn

Robyn, I reread the article, and more slowly this time. You're right; I did jump the gun. Nevertheless, the prospect of a powdered form of Fit, which will supposedly kill 99.9% of bacteria on produce, does scare me a little, though the article clearly does not recommend these vegetable-cleaning products. (I never thought I'd write that: "vegetable-cleaning products.") I am still curious to know, however, whether Jeffrey has come across anything in his research about shigella in unwashed produce, to put the article in some perspective. (By the way, I don't wash my melons.)

Jeffrey, can you still respond to the bit about the sausage?

[Pan]

What's the downside to washing a melon? I can't see one, which is why I've always washed (well, rinsed) them.

[jackal10]

This seems to me to be a classic, and all too prevelant confusion between threat, vulnerability and risk.
Yes, there is a threat that fruit rinds carry bacteria; they may also carry soil, birdshit and all sorts of casual contaminants.
However, is this a real risk for human health? People have been eating unwashed fruit since humans began; it is not a significant cause of death or disease. People are not partcularly vulnerable to such exposure, except in very special circumstances.
Likely that the continued exposure to the soap and chemicals, being artificial, from the washing process are a greater risk to health.

[Pan]

As I said, what's the downside to rinsing?

[robyn]

Robyn, I reread the article, and more slowly this time. You're right; I did jump the gun. Nevertheless, the prospect of a powdered form of Fit, which will supposedly kill 99.9% of bacteria on produce, does scare me a little, though the article clearly does not recommend these vegetable-cleaning products. (I never thought I'd write that: "vegetable-cleaning products.") I am still curious to know, however, whether Jeffrey has come across anything in his research about shigella in unwashed produce, to put the article in some perspective. (By the way, I don't wash my melons.)

Jeffrey, can you still respond to the bit about the sausage?

Well - I'm not about ready to start washing my produce in anything (too lazy). But rinsing - putting the salad greens in a salad spinner - etc. - is a whole 'nother ball game.

By the way - if I remember correctly - shigella is something that mostly affects chldren (could be wrong about that). I'm more concerned about things like hep A. Animals don't usually go to the bathroom where they eat - but sometimes people who work in the fields don't have a choice. Robyn

[jogoode]

I don't think anyone would say that there is a downside to rinsing. It's just that deciding to scare people into changing their behavior instead of presenting a carefully reasoned argument that deals candidly with both sides of the argument is something we see far too much in the media. Not to say that this article is the best example -- as I said, I may have jumped the gun -- but the Times has certainly been guilty of this in the past. The thought "Maybe I didn't wash my apple well enough" might be enough to compel an already fearful public to head for the Veggie Wash -- the same logic that gave rise to the proliferation of antibacterial handwash.

And as dosconz said a few posts up:

I'll add my opinion and that of many others in the medical field that excessive hygiene can be counterproductive. Our immune systems need some exposure in order to work properly. The more fastidious we become the more likely a particular encounter with a pathogen will be significant. Of course that doesn't mean I want to be unnecessarily exposed to shigella or other pathogens. It does mean that small exposures here and there are probably not a bad thing to a non-immunocompromised individual.

And how can water alone take care of concerns about Shigella, as the article suggests? Why should I start to use special wash for my fruit -- I use Dial on my cutting board after it touches raw chicken?

[Pan]

I don't think anyone would say that there is a downside to rinsing.

So then, without prejudice to the rest of your post, why not do it?

[jogoode]

I do do it. Again, I'm not taking issue with rinsing but with the article's implication.

[Katherine]

I caught shigellosis in Venezuela. I've always been an incredibly healthy person, with fast recovery and a great immune system, but I was lucky I was able to get to the ER when I did. It's not a disease that attacks mostly children and those with compromised immune systems.

[robyn]

I do do it. Again, I'm not taking issue with rinsing but with the article's implication.

I don't think the NYT article came to an "excessive" conclusion. It just mentioned "excessive" concerns. I have to laugh - because my husband and I come from totally different backgrounds. My mother was (still is) an excessive "neat freak" in the kitchen. His mother was a total slob. But neither of us ever got sick from food.

My mother always did/still does cook food to points of inedible "doneness" (particularly protein based foods like meat and eggs - she won't even touch fish). Although I think this is unwarranted - I don't use raw eggs in cooking - and I will get things like ground beef up to temperatures where bacteria are killed. There's a middle ground.

I do agree with the people who caution against the use of too many anti-bacterial products. We develop immunities (mostly as kids) from little exposures to bad things over the years. Polio emerged an an endemic disease when I was a kid because of sanitation efforts which prevented kids from having minor exposures which resulted in increased immunity to the disease.

Still - I think rinsing fresh produce is happy medium. Robyn

[jogoode]

My mother always did/still does cook food to points of inedible "doneness" (particularly protein based foods like meat and eggs - she won't even touch fish).  Although I think this is unwarranted - I don't use raw eggs in cooking - and I will get things like ground beef up to temperatures where bacteria are killed.  There's a middle ground...

Still - I think rinsing fresh produce is happy medium.  Robyn

The danger comes -- danger to the taste experience, I mean -- when people are improperly informed of the temperature at which a burger must be cooked for it to be safe to eat. When I was younger I remember a widespread and influential rumor that only a well- done burger is a safe burger. Then it came out that a burger cooked to medium rare, and even rare, is cooked enough to kill most bacteria. This type of rumor, which compelled me to live without juicy, flavorful burgers for a good portion of my life, cause me to question any method of risk-reducing behavior that may compromise taste. It's, of course, all about balancing risk and benefits, and about hedging this risk by, say, only purchasing your hamburger meat from a butcher who you are sure grinds the meat of one cow, thus limiting the risk of infection that comes from a burger made from ten different cows. (I think this last bit is something I heard from you, Jeffrey.)

I'm sure this is just a typo, or I could be missing something, but you don't use raw eggs in cooking? Do you mean you try to make sure your eggs are always cooked thoroughly? I hope you don't deny yourself sp. carbonara or runny yolks on toast with sea salt and fresh pepper?! And Jeffrey's article on eggs convinced me that my runny yolks are quite safe, or atleast that eatin them is a risk I'm willing to take.

Sorry about the tangent, Robyn. I think washing produce is a very happy medium.

[robyn]

[The danger comes -- danger to the taste experience, I mean -- when people are improperly informed of the temperature at which a burger must be cooked for it to be safe to eat. When I was younger I remember a widespread and influential rumor that only a well- done burger is a safe burger. Then it came out that a burger cooked to medium rare, and even rare, is cooked enough to kill most bacteria. This type of rumor, which compelled me to live without juicy, flavorful burgers for a good portion of my life, cause me to question any method of risk-reducing behavior that may compromise taste. It's, of course, all about balancing risk and benefits, and about hedging this risk by, say, only purchasing your hamburger meat from a butcher who you are sure grinds the meat of one cow, thus limiting the risk of infection that comes from a burger made from ten different cows. (I think this last bit is something I heard from you, Jeffrey.)

I'm sure this is just a typo, or I could be missing something, but you don't use raw eggs in cooking? Do you mean you try to make sure your eggs are always cooked thoroughly? I hope you don't deny yourself sp. carbonara or runny yolks on toast with sea salt and fresh pepper?! And Jeffrey's article on eggs convinced me that my runny yolks are quite safe, or atleast that eatin them is a risk I'm willing to take.

Sorry about the tangent, Robyn. I think washing produce is a very happy medium.

The danger of ground beef IMO isn't that it comes from one cow or ten cows. If you have a solid hunk of beef - almost all bacteria will be on the outside. When you cook that hunk of beef - you will kill the bacteria on the outside. When you have ground beef - bacteria on the outside can wind up inside when you fashion a burger or loaf. You won't kill the bacteria on the inside unless the inside gets to a temperature which is high enough to kill bacteria. Now most of these bacteria won't make a reasonably healthy person very sick or dead - but people with various health problems should avoid rare burgers (among other things).

As a practical matter - I only eat rare burgers at home - and I wash my hands a lot when I handle raw meat. Even if I wanted to eat a rare burger at a restaurant -I couldn't (no restaurant here will serve them since restaurants are strictly liable for food-induced illnesses).

I don't eat many eggs. Egg salad. The occasional scrambled egg dish with lots of stuff mixed into it for dinner. I don't use raw eggs in things like chocolate (uncooked) mousse or caesar salad. Robyn

[jogoode]

...and I wash my hands a lot when I handle raw meat.  Even if I wanted to eat a rare burger at a restaurant -I couldn't (no restaurant here will serve them since restaurants are strictly liable for food-induced illnesses).

Interesting, where do you live? I've never heard anything like that before. How can restaurants be liable for food-induced illnesses when it is nearly impossible to prove that a particular restaurant/meal is responsible for an instance of food-poisoning? If after a case of food-poisoning you recall that you had a salad for lunch at home and dinner at an oyster shack, you'll probably sue the oyster shack when your salad could easily be to blame. Anyone?

[tigerwoman]

My parents and I have always rinsed melons before cutting them. I see no downside, and the upside is that it gets rid of some dirt and (if any) pesticides.

the downside is that washing fruits such as strawberries or veg such as mushrooms makes them absorb water (and I would think that whatever is on the surface has already seeped in anyhow) which is detrimental to the texture and taste of the item.

Most chefs I have ever worked with are very much against washing mushrooms or strawberries for example - usually we take a damp cloth or paper towel and brush away any dirt that is visible.

[docsconz]

Pesticides are another whole issue and are of more concern to me personally. This might be a reason for using the spray-on stuff if it works to remove any residual pesticides.

[robyn]

...and I wash my hands a lot when I handle raw meat.  Even if I wanted to eat a rare burger at a restaurant -I couldn't (no restaurant here will serve them since restaurants are strictly liable for food-induced illnesses).

Interesting, where do you live? I've never heard anything like that before. How can restaurants be liable for food-induced illnesses when it is nearly impossible to prove that a particular restaurant/meal is responsible for an instance of food-poisoning? If after a case of food-poisoning you recall that you had a salad for lunch at home and dinner at an oyster shack, you'll probably sue the oyster shack when your salad could easily be to blame. Anyone?

I live in Florida. It actually isn't that hard to pin the blame on a particular restaurant or food source for severe food poisoning cases - because more than one person usually gets sick (most people aren't going to sue for a one night tummy ache - and when one person gets really sick - he or she usually isn't alone). E.g., remember the recent outbreak of salmonella at Chili's? And e.g., food handlers with hep A usually don't pass it on to only one person. Public health organizations also tend to get involved in an attempt to track down the source of the problem.

In addition - sometimes a particular illness is linked to a certain kind of food. E.g., I once handled a case where someone got ciguatera - which you only get from certain kinds of fish. The person had eaten fish in the right time frame - but it wasn't the kind of fish that gives you ciguatera. Then - in discovery - we found out the restaurant had lied about the kind of fish it was serving. Got a very nice settlement. Robyn

[robyn]

My parents and I have always rinsed melons before cutting them. I see no downside, and the upside is that it gets rid of some dirt and (if any) pesticides.

the downside is that washing fruits such as strawberries or veg such as mushrooms makes them absorb water (and I would think that whatever is on the surface has already seeped in anyhow) which is detrimental to the texture and taste of the item.

Most chefs I have ever worked with are very much against washing mushrooms or strawberries for example - usually we take a damp cloth or paper towel and brush away any dirt that is visible.

I'm not aware that mushrooms can be a problem - but you can get hep A from strawberries. Which is why I wash them (and then dry them).

Do these same chefs who are against washing produce also require the people who handle the produce to wear plastic gloves? Do they test them for hepatitis (hepatitis can be spread from bad sanitary practices in the field and the kitchen)?

Also - as far as mushrooms are concerned - what's the problem with them absorbing some liquid if you're going to cook them (which forces them to give up their liquid)? Robyn

[jogoode]

Thanks for the restaurant info, Robyn.

Also - as far as mushrooms are concerned - what's the problem with them absorbing some liquid if you're going to cook them (which forces them to give up their liquid)?  Robyn

When cooking fish with its skin on, you must try to get as much moisture out as possible to get it nice and crisp without overcooking the fish's flesh. In the same way, if a mushroom is sodden, then it'll take a very long time to develop, or may never develop, those crisp edges.

[Pan]

I don't understand the problem with rinsing strawberries and then drying them, and I hope the restaurants that don't rinse strawberries are using organic fruit exclusively because, as docsconz alluded to, strawberries and other berries tend to top lists of fruits and vegetables that in tests show the highest pesticide residues.

[robyn]

Also - as far as mushrooms are concerned - what's the problem with them absorbing some liquid if you're going to cook them (which forces them to give up their liquid)?  Robyn

When cooking fish with its skin on, you must try to get as much moisture out as possible to get it nice and crisp without overcooking the fish's flesh. In the same way, if a mushroom is sodden, then it'll take a very long time to develop, or may never develop, those crisp edges.

Perhaps my memory is failing me tonight - but I mostly saute mushrooms for things like sauces and quiches and eggs and they are never crisp. What kinds of dishes are served with crisp mushrooms? (I guess there are dishes with fried mushrooms but I don't eat a lot of fried food).

I wash fish too - but dry it on lots of paper towels before I saute it so the skin gets crisp (use the same paper towels on mushrooms - but not because I'm trying to get them crisp). Robyn

[jogoode]

Also - as far as mushrooms are concerned - what's the problem with them absorbing some liquid if you're going to cook them (which forces them to give up their liquid)?  Robyn

When cooking fish with its skin on, you must try to get as much moisture out as possible to get it nice and crisp without overcooking the fish's flesh. In the same way, if a mushroom is sodden, then it'll take a very long time to develop, or may never develop, those crisp edges.

Perhaps my memory is failing me tonight - but I mostly saute mushrooms for things like sauces and quiches and eggs and they are never crisp. What kinds of dishes are served with crisp mushrooms? (I guess there are dishes with fried mushrooms but I don't eat a lot of fried food).

I wash fish too - but dry it on lots of paper towels before I saute it so the skin gets crisp (use the same paper towels on mushrooms - but not because I'm trying to get them crisp). Robyn

When I roast smaller mushrooms, chanterelles for instance, I look for a texture different than that of, say, a sauteed portobello. The latter I hope will be meaty, slightly chewy. I prefer a lot less moisture when I roast chanterelles and expect crisp edges, a bit of crunch when I bite.

I was just using the fish example to clarify why I am wary of washing mushrooms too thoroughly.