74 replies to this topic

[cabrales]

Dialogue in the "Chef of the Century" thread on the role of perception on a restaurant diner's fulfillment from a meal prompted thought on the extent to which diners may derive satisfaction from receiving (or at least believing they are receiving) scarce items from a restaurant.  Below are some preliminary observations.

1. Special dishes that are "off-menu" or otherwise not available to most diners.

Among the scarcity categories considered in this post, off-menu dishes (i.e., not just dishes that are not ordered and are furnished to the diner, but dishes that are not generally prepared for other diners) please me the most.  The benefit from these dishes is the opportunity to sample them and is less intertwined with "mere perceptual" issues.

For certain diners, there may be the added benefit of knowing that surrounding informed diners at the restaurant would perceive the special treatment accorded to the "special dish" recipient, to the extent such surrounding diners were knowledgeable about the menu and the restaurant's cuisine.  I imagine that the significance of this aspect of the experience would vary quite a bit among diners.   Would the dish recipient diner's perception of the level of culinary sophistication of the restaurant's clientele be relevant?

(As an aside: Would members derive dissatisfaction from seeing the receipt of these dishes by other diners?  Or would they attribute the special treatment to differences in the frequency of patronage and other factors?)

2. Difficulty of securing reservations.  

With extremely limited exceptions, I derive almost no enjoyment from securing difficult reservations.  If I cared enough about a restaurant, I would likely have inquired into its reservation policy (if any), made reservations in advance and reconfirmed more than necessary.  Visiting restaurants is a sufficiently high priority for me to not have to rely on last-minute pleas for cancelled tables or special treatment with respect to scarce reservations.  Also, my attribution of less value to this scarcity factor has to do with my belief that, with the exception of a few restaurants in the world, I recognize that I will likely not derive so much fulfillment from them as to make a scarce reservation compelling.  I would remain interested in sampling restaurants not fitting this special category, but I would not feel it was a necessity.

3. Attention of dining room team.  

This can also be a source of satisfaction for some diners.  Given the constraints on the time restaurant personnel can spend at a given table, the receipt of a disproportionately greater amount of the personnel's time might not only enhance the overall fulfillment from a meal, but it may offer, for some, perception-rooted benefits.

[macrosan]

I enjoy ordering off-item menus, and do so regularly. If a dish is offered with a sauce that I don't favor, I ask for an alternative sauce. If I prefer other than the menu-offered accompaniments, I ask for them. If there is something on the dinner menu that I prefer to anything on the lunch menu, I ask for it. Most times that I order pasta at an Italian restaurant, I ask for my own invented dish. I have never had a problem with any of these requests at any decent restaurant I ever visit. It's not special treatment, it's something called "service". Of course, sometimes what I'm asking for can't be done, but they just tell me that and I'll accept it.

The mere THOUGHT that anyone would do this simply so that other diners in the restaurant would be impressed is frankly laughable.

I would never knowingly go to a restaurant which allows celebrity or favored customers to make reservations unavailable to other customers. The Ivy in London is notorious for this, and I simply would not go there on principle. There are plenty of better restaurants which have an honest and unambiguous approach to their customers.

I concur with your third point, however. Of course I tend to expect a warmer welcome, and more careful and knowledgeable attention from restaurants where I am a regular customer. I expect them to know where I like to sit, what water I like, what type of coffee, etc. And little touches like "Did you enjoy your holiday", "We have a new duck dish on the menu which you might like", and so on, all help my customer experience. This is no different from any company which has a proper customer relations concept. I get the same attention in principle from my barber and my car maintenance garage.

I think all you're saying, Cabrales, is that elitism and snobbery exist in the restaurant industry as much as in every other walk of life. I have no time for those attitudes in any environment.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Cabrales - Sur Commande seems to be more of a European concept than an American one. I can think of places in France that offer dishes that need to be ordered up to 48 hours in advance but I can't think of any here.  And the tradition of preparing the food the way a diner wants it seems to have spilled over into French restaurants in NYC. It used to be at Le Cirque (and it might still be) that you could order any type of meat or fish and they would cook it for you any way you like. La Cote Basque would do that to. Do you think you could do that at Gotham or Chanterelle? The only American I can think of at the moment where they do that is  Aqua Grill.

As for creating special menus, it's not unusual for some famous French chef to show up tableside to discuss the menu with you before you order. Few American chefs do that. Tom Collichio os one who will. I've had dinner there on a few occassions where 6-8 people brought a bottle of wine per course with them and he came to the table both times to discuss constructing an approriate tasting menu.  And I've had Jean-Georges do that with me as well. It also happens to be the best way to get food that isn't on the menu as the chef will try and think of what he has in the kitchen that might not be listed on the menu or propose a preparation that isn't on the menu.

As for hard to get into restaurants because they are filled with regulars, I don't mind them providing it isn't impossible to get a table. Macrosan brought up The Ivy and that's a place that can be difficult but I've always found you can get a table there. I have favored status at  number of places around town and deservedly so, I eat in those places often enough to deserve it.

[macrosan]

That's interesting, Steve, that you see a difference between the US and European attitude to "special orders". Two occasions that I recall that I tried that in NYC were when I asked for grilled halibut instead of the meuniere on the menu at a fish restaurant on 57th whose name escapes me, and for a roast duck dish without the bacon offered on the menu, and with a sauce other than the plum offered, at Lutece. Both times the waiter had to ask the chef, but both times I was offered a choice of alternative sauces. Have I been unusually lucky ? I have to say that one of the things I've always liked about eating in the USA is the much better appreciation there of the need for customer service (better than the UK, that is).

I have to admit that in a "great chef" restaurant, I'd be more inclined to take what's on the menu, on the basis that he knows more about food than I do, and one of the reasons I'm there is to try something different and better :)

Incidentally, I understand your "favored status" as being a convenience for you if you eat out a lot, and therefore probably don't book in advance a lot. But do you get a kick out of being able to to get a reservation when others can't? And do you approve of me, say, having my advance reservation cancelled by the restaurant so you can get yours?

[Wilfrid]

Quote: from Steve Plotnicki on 8:21 am on Dec. 21, 2001
It used to be at Le Cirque (and it might still be) that you could order any type of meat or fish and they would cook it for you any way you like.  

Yes, that offer still features prominently on Le Cirque's menu.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Macrosan - I didn't say that places in the U.S. are inflexible. Quite often they try and accomodate you if you bother to ask. My wife orders almost everything with sauce on the side. Nobody ever refuses. But that is different than what I percieve as the European custom which is that they are prepared to take any ingredient on the menu (or off) and  prepare it for you in any way that they can. While there are restaurants here who will do that, it isn't anywhere as common or nearly as obvious if it is.

I think that where this issue rises and falls is how knowledgable the waitstaff is. I can recall six of us at dinner at Le Palme d'Or in Cannes on a beautiful September evening where the Maitre d' was taking our order. He saw we were struggling a bit with our main dishes and he started reciting all the ingredients they had in the kitchen that wern't on the menu.  When he got to the Veal Filet, and he saw a few of us raise an eyebrow, he offered us the veal topped with black truffles from Umbria. The end result was one of the most memorable dishes I've had in my life. Not only that. Our choice made him review the prior courses and he tinkered with them and we changed things around to have a "proper" meal.

Now I think that story is fairly typical for high end dining in Europe. But I think the chances of that happening at a place like Gotham or Eleven Madison Park are near zero.  They are cooking for too many people in those places and as such, nobody has a job similar to my pal at Le Palme d'Or.

In this city, I used to get that type of service from Dominique at Bouley Bakery who would come to my table and say "what are you in the mood for?" And Collichio is more than happy to show up tableside and help you plan an appropriate meal. And you see Daniel visiting a table for menu planning on occassion. But in this country I think it's the exception and not the rule. And I think that is because the economics of restaurants here are different than they are in Europe and they have to feed too many people here.

As an aside here, wine service is another thing where they can be really helpful or just take your order. I'm fairly expert in wine but I like when the sommelier checks my choice against the menu I have ordered. Quite often they have a useful comment that leads to a different choice. Once again, I think that is more of a common practice in Europe than it is here.

As for my status as a regular displacing someone else's reservation, I've never seen that happen and I've never had it happen to me at places where I'm not known. Who does that?

[cabrales]

Macrosan -- I wanted to provide a clarification.  I set forth the three initial factors to begin an exploration of the impact of scarcity on diners' perceptions of restaurant experiences. The examples were not intended to suggest that elitism is appropriate. I suppose elitism could be one aspect of a diner's perception of himself that affects his perceptions of scarcity. For example, if a diner is elitist, his perceptions that he is reaping scarce benefits might give him satisfaction because they are consistent with his self-image.  Conversely, if a diner is insecure, he may receive satisfaction from having his need to be assured addressed through scarce benefits.

I agree that the perception of surrounding diners should be irrelevant in almost every situation.  However, I admit, in special circumstances that rarely come to pass, to having felt a sense of glee when I receive "special dishes". The receipt of a special dish without prompting can be distinguished, for me, from the diner's request and receipt of a special dish.  I have never requested a "special order" in the sense of a dish that is not on the menu but that I ask be prepared by the cuisinier.  I would not choose to risk imposition upon the cuisinier, unless the dish is a signature dish of the cuisinier that is somehow not on the current menu and for which ingredients appear to be readily available.

As for Macrosan's point about "never knowingly go[ing] to a restaurant which allows celebrity or favored customers to make reservations unavailable to other customers", I would like to explore whether preferential access to, say, cancelled reservations by repeat customers could be viewed as an aspect of customer service.  If cancelled reservations are less offensive, how about a restaurant that tends to have one or two tables left unreserved and available to known diners?  Or restaurants with relationships to concierges at certain hotels and that might accord concierges more favorable treatment? Is there an argument that the hotel's sending of customers to the restaurant on a regular basis justifies greater access?  It does not particularly bother me when a restaurant makes reservations easier to secure for known, repeat customers or even for celebrities.  Some restaurants like to receive media coverage, and it could be rational for them to enhance the perceptions (note) of cache on the part of other diners who may like eating at the same place as a celebrity does.  For me, that may be difficult to imagine for a diner truly appreciating the cuisine, though.

On your second post, Macrosan, are you aware of instances where a diner with an advance reservation gets cancelled by the restaurant to make room for last minute repeat customers?  That would appear to be inappropriate behavior on the part of the restaurant, assuming the original diner had, depending on geography, timely called to confirm the reservation.  I have never had my reservation cancelled, and am diligent about furnishing confirmations as appropriate.

Steve -- On your experiences with Gramercy Tavern, were the wines you brought expensive wines (not that that is relevant to our discussion)?  Would the chef have been helpful, in your mind, if less distinguished wines had been brought?  I still have difficulties with BYO (even when I dine alone).  That has led me to wonder whether, subconsciously, I am worried it might affect restaurant personnels' perceptions of me.  I will consider this issue further.

[cabrales]

Quote: from Steve Plotnicki on 10:12 am on Dec. 21, 2001
But that is different than what I percieve as the European custom which is that they are prepared to take any ingredient on the menu (or off) and  prepare it for you in any way that they can

Steve --- When you have a chance, please discuss experiences where you have requested a dish at a European restaurant with  special ingredients.  As always, happy to continue dialogue.

I am leaving for vacation, but will continue to check posts (albeit less frequently).  Happy holidays to all :)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Cabrales - Well rather than categorize them by cost (okay they were mostly expensive), let me say that they were all high quality :). But I've brought great ษ bottles of wine to GT and have sent back a glass for the chef only to have him appear at my table to find out what it is and have the exchange cause them to get the wine for the list.

BYO is an odd duck. Many restaurants allow it but they all treat it differently. My experience with the Danny Meyer restaurants is that they teach the waitstaff to show great respect for a good bottle of wine. And if you walk in with a nice bottle, they look at it as if you paid them a compliment.  So it isn't unusual to have the chef come by and thank you because he likes the idea of his food being served with a great wine (giving him glass of wine doesn't hurt either.)

And you can have the exact opposite experience somewhere else where they look at you as a pariah who is keeping them from making their requisite markup per table, even though they are charging you ฽ for corkage. Jean-Georges allows corkage but his staff is  pretty indifferent about it. Once we brought an esoteric ( but inexpensive) Alsatian dessert wine and sent a glass back to the kitchen for him. About five minutes later he showed up at our table asking all sorts of questions about it and chatted with us for a minute or two. It's a shame he runs such a large and busy operation and he doesn't have much time to interact with his customers that way because he seems to enjoy it when he does. But it's a good example of what bringing a good bottle of wine can do for you.

[Fat Guy]

I've worn a couple of different hats as a restaurant customer.

I used to wear my litigator-businesman hat most of the time. Special treatment for me back then was essential and enjoyable for a number of reasons. First, I ate out at the same few places so often that I would have grown terribly bored without the ability to go off-menu. (I should clarify that I don't consider the term off-menu to include sauce-on-the-side or substitution requests; off-menu to me means a dish specially conceived from the ground up that is offered exclusively to preferred customers or perhaps only to one customer.) Second, as a businessperson, you look good when you take clients out and a restaurant treats you as royalty. Third, it's nice once in awhile to take your accumulated political capital as a business luncher and convert it into a special dinner with the wife. Finally, because my busy schedule was so unpredictable and volatile, I needed the privilege of last-minute reservations in order to be able to dine out at all at the good places.

As a critic, albeit a lesser-known one, special treatment becomes more of a problem. It disables you from being able to judge the average customer's experience as effectively as an anonymous visit would. Then again, you get to see what the chef is capable of at the outside limits of his or her talents. But ultimately getting special treatment simply because you're a critic feels wrong. It is borderline corrupt. And it gives a different perspective on the whole special-treatment industry. So at this point I'm certainly in favor of special treatment for good customers (that's just business) provided there is a high standard for all customers. That's why special treatment at Gramercy Tavern doesn't offend me the way special treatment at Le Cirque does. At Gramercy, everybody gets a superb experience, and a few people get a little extra attention. At Le Cirque and its ilk, there is a medieval-type hierarchy in place, and I resent it, both in general and on behalf of my readers.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steve Shaw - The difference between a place like Le Ciqrue and GT is that the VIP's at Le Cirque are buying Petrus, d'Yqueem etc. At Gramercy, 跌 bottles are an expensive purchase. As a sommelier at a Le Cirque equivalent told me, he has a client that comes in and has to drink 1947 Petrus whenever he's there, and he comes often. That adds something like ŭk to the check. And he can drink more than one bottle and other wines as well.

Otherwise, special treatment in restaurants is the best. It is why we go. To be served. There is no better service than custom service.

Cabrales - The following tale comes to mind. I was at a business diner in January of 1988 or 1989 at Chantecler in the Negresco Hotel in Nice. Maximin was the chef. The captain came to the table to take our order and a friend who was dining with us couldn't make up his mind. So the captain started to reel off the various things they could make him. All of a sudden my friend cuts him off and says "I want truffles." So the captain starts reeling off various dishes that feature truffles and my friend says "No I want only truffles, nothing else." So when our pasta course came  (the rest of us were eating either the lobster menu or the Nicoise menu and it was ravioli stuffed with either foie gras or lobster,) my friend was served a truffle that was braised in some trype of stock until it cooked through. It must have been the size of a tennis ball. I dare you to go into Jean-Georges and tell them that's what you want.

[Wilfrid]

Quote: from Fat Guy on 11:28 am on Dec. 21, 2001
At Le Cirque and its ilk, there is a medieval-type hierarchy in place.

I wonder who the other offenders are?  I think I got the impression from an earlier thread that you felt Caravelle fell into that category.  Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have always been treated very well at Le Cirque, and I'm pretty much a twice a year customer rather than a regular.  I've been trying to think of places where I felt I was being treated like I didn't fit in, and the few offenders that come to mind are by no means upscale restaurants.

Something which clearly does happen - and doubtless for the kinds of reasons Steve Plotnicki gives - is extraordinary treatment for high rollers, regular big spenders and celebrities.  I have no objection to that, as long as I'm treated well.  I certainly don't feel forlorn if Siro Maccioni doesn't come over to chat with me.  Relieved, if anything.

I wonder how real these "siberias" and "hierarchies" are, and how many are left in New York?

[Fat Guy]

Quote: from Steve Plotnicki on 2:51 pm on Dec. 21, 2001
Steve Shaw - The difference between a place like Le Ciqrue and GT is that the VIP's at Le Cirque are buying Petrus, d'Yqueem etc.

I'd say the difference is that the lowliest customer at Gramercy Tavern is treated well, whereas the lowliest customer at Le Cirque is treated as the lowliest customer. There is no justification for that regardless of the disparity in purchasing power. As I said, I've got no problem with a restaurant that does special things for special customers, provided there's a strong base level of food and service. Le Cirque, La Caravelle, and the other restaurants I collectively call "the Midtown dinosaurs" do not pass this test, or, rather, they fail it too often.

[macrosan]

Quote: from Fat Guy on 9:30 pm on Dec. 21, 2001
I'd say the difference is that the lowliest customer at Gramercy Tavern is treated well, whereas the lowliest customer at Le Cirque is treated as the lowliest customer.

That sums up the issue perfectly for me. That's what would make GT the sort of place I'd want to go to, and Le Cirque the sort of place I wouldn't.

btw Steve, Michael Winner regularly describes how he jumps other people's reservations at 'smart' restaurants around the world, and then offers to pay for them to have a free meal as 'compensation'.  Winger may be a pompous ass (well OK, Winger IS a pompous ass) but I don't think he's a liar. That may not be common, but if a restaurant can ALWAYS find a table for a celebrity, unless they really do leave several tables vacant, how else can they do that without bumping someone?

[Fat Guy]

In most cases, they really do leave tables vacant. Even though they say they don't, they do.

In addition, there are almost always no-shows, even at single-sitting places. So it's possible to gamble and overbook just a bit. Usually it's not a problem.

At a restaurant where there are table turns, it's possible to have the kitchen and waitstaff speed things up a bit at certain tables in order to free them up at certain times. If you hurry some people up, and you make some other people wait and offer them a drink to calm them down, you can usually create a hole in the schedule.

Finally, it's often possible to sneak an extra table into the dining room, or to cram a party of three into a table for two, etc.

[Wilfrid]

[quote]Quote: from Fat Guy on 4:30 pm on Dec. 21, 2001
[quote]Quote: from Steve Plotnicki on 2:51 pm on Dec. 21, 2001
"the Midtown dinosaurs"
[/quote]

I have no basis to disagree.  As I said, I've had no problem, but I am hardly a representative sample.  Thing is, I like, and am intellectually interested in, what you might well call "dinosaur" restauarnts and "dinsoaur" cuisine.  Not that I would want to eat that way all the time - but I would regard it as a pity if that ethos became extinct.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steve Shaw - I hear you about this lowliest customer thing at Le Cirque. I've had mixed experiences with them myself. But in general, I have found that if you can impress on your captain that you have a reasonable knowledge of food and wine, then to a large degree the service will improve.

The restaurants you call the midtown dinosaurs operate more like private clubs than restaurants. Some of them do a better job of dealing with John Q. Public than others. But none are really great at it. I wonder if they have a different attitude now that business is down from 9/11.

[Fat Guy]

Quote: from Steve Plotnicki on 6:30 pm on Dec. 21, 2001
in general, I have found that if you can impress on your captain that you have a reasonable knowledge of food and wine, then to a large degree the service will improve.

So true, and so hard to explain to those who continually suffer bad service. There are many people who care, who know, and who understand, but who can't communicate it. They shouldn't have to. But if they could learn how, it would be a good thing for them.

[861728]

Quote: from Fat Guy on 1:21 am on Dec. 22, 2001

So true, and so hard to explain to those who continually suffer bad service. There are many people who care, who know, and who understand, but who can't communicate it. They shouldn't have to. But if they could learn how, it would be a good thing for them.

As a Captain in NYC I have been watching this thread with interest. There can be a difference between some one who is a regular of the house and someone who is a regular of the wait staff.  I can name a number of "high roller" or otherwise influential guests that no one on staff wants to wait on save for the increased gratuity. And then there are MY regulars. Or my colleagues reglaurs. Those who dine because I wait on them and for whom the interaction is a pleasure for both of us. Whether you drink Iced Tea or Petrus.
But what Shaw writes above speaks to the larger issue. There are those people who simply do not know how to have relationships with public servants whether we are capatins or the guy at the pharmacy counter or the clerk at Bloomingdales. I have friends like that and they make me cringe to be with them. But here are my thoughts on restaurant specific issues. These are all things that will make me hate you but the first two lay it out. It's all about the communication and being direct and honest. If you want more of my warm attention throughout the meal then don't waste my time in the beginning.

1. Knowing #### well what you want but asking for my recomendations as a test to see if it will match up with your desire. To see if I'll independantly choose the dish your thinking of for reassurance. If you want confirmation ASK FOR CONFIRMATION!

2. In the same vein of not being direct and honest in your comunication: If you're shopping a price on wine then shop the price. Do not say "I want a 1994 fully extracted California Cabernet in the style of Bryant Family" and then balk when I show you a 趚 bottle of wine. Instead: "I want to spend ุ-์ on a full bodied red and I prefer California Cab."

3. Asking for ice in your mineral water. This identifies you as a person with ZERO awareness, since I know none of you do this please pass on to all of your friends that the ice is made from municipal water.

That's enough for now.

[Steve Klc]

Sorry I'm late to this, but a few observations:

I have always felt tables were left open on busy evenings--and have even felt this at Gramercy Tavern where I know the wine director and pastry chef--not necessarily left open for the whole seating, but longer than necessary to accomodate celebs, food writers, screwed up reservations, regulars and other chefs that might drop in at the last minute.  Other reasons why I've seen tables left open inexplicably long--even at top restaurants--is because the kitchen might be crunched, the chef isn't there and/or the overall staff might be in the weeds or be understaffed that shift.  Especially in a restaurant that prides itself on customer service--granted a rarity--but I've wondered if this wasn't a purposeful form of self-protection.  I don't know about the rest of you--but once I am seated, I want reasonable and focused service;  I'd rather sit at the bar drinking an apertif rather than be seated in a dining room frustrated with harried or slow service.  If a few tables are left open to bring this about--I won't complain.  (I guess this is tacit support of Cabrales' initial point #3)

Moving on to Le Cirque and the "dinosaurs"--I have to say I'm solidly with Steven on this one.  (Unlike Wilfrid, I'd love to see the dinosaur ethos become extinct.) "The chickens have come home to roost" and it has "fallen off the radar" and any other cliches one might want to trot out apply to Le Cirque.  Savvy, knowing foodies moved on a long time ago from this power lunch-celeb spotting bastion of preferential treatment.  It takes more than pedestrian cooking to stay relevant today, even in a theatrically-designed space--especially in NYC where there are such high restaurant standards.  

Dining philosophies and sensibilities have changed, and the relationship between diner and restaurant has become more equitable, too--for the better, I'd suggest.  For the media, it's clearly all about the chef now--and it's much harder to front the "restaurateur as celeb" as in the past.  The food media has also pushed along two tracks--a modern chef's food either has to be rustic, authentic and simple or innovative, stylish and creative. Or both simultaneously.  Le Cirque was neither.

On the dessert side, it takes more than tired creme brulee and bomboloni--how much longer can we read about Le Cirque's unrequited "looking for the world's greatest executive pastry chef" and not become suspect?  This marketing strategy worked in 1989 and the nascent media bought it then--but times have changed.  Unless Sirio installed Philippe Conticini or Alberto Adria (and even then there would still be legitimate debate) we know better now.  It's much tougher to sell "the experience" of the "private club" as Steve P. accurately describes it-- without the talent to back it up--and selling "exclusivity" now is like Salon.com charging for premium content.

I'd suggest Steven is right on with his expressed resentment of Le Cirque and all it stood for--and that any bastions which cling to a medeival-type of customer class system will soon be irrelevant.  Expect a pronounced pr campaign to alter this perception. Chalk another one up to Danny Meyer and credit the oft-abused food media (talentless shill Bill Boggs excepted) for helping to define a new relevance--where Ducasse and Daniel exist alongside the likes of Craft and Prune.
And thanks to Cabrales for his thougtful, provoking lead in to another possibly limitless thread--that of elitism and a diner's perception of the restaurant experience.  To Cabrales, I'd say I always put myself in the chef's hands--either off the regular menu, the tasting menu or simply ask the chef to choose for me--and I have never asked for anything special, i.e. substitutions or "special" off-menu dishes, ever.  I want to capture a moment or an experience as determined by that chef at that time.  As often as feasible, I ask that the chef, rather than the sommelier alone, select wines for each one of his courses.  (And I'd never bring a bottle of my own wine into a restaurant that has a wine list.  Just a quirk of mine.  It would be like someone pouring their own chocolate sauce over one of my desserts.)

But Steve P.--I wonder if you're not wading into dangerous territory by defining--for the generic "us"--"why we go to restaurants" for "special treatment" and that there is "no better service than 'custom service'."  (I may be inferring something you didn't intend Steve P., but this is possibly as risky as your attempts to define for "us" what is and what is not art on another thread.)

Back to Cabrales--I do derive immense, special joy from those "gifts" or unexpected "amuse" from the chef that you were specifically excluding in your original post.  To sum up, I'd say that the scarcity factor has zero relevance for me--but the "surprise" factor and "lessening of control" factor has much more.

And finally, my hope is with Steven, that we on eGullet help diners, both casual and sophisticated, realize that they are more than just customers in a business transaction when they are in a restaurant--that their patronage has value and that the relationship between diner and chef and restaurant holds hope and promise--and that we on eGullet help to empower that relationship both ways.

[Steve Plotnicki]

861728 - Hey that was a great rant. I know exactly what you mean. I used to have a business partner and we would be in France together once a year in Cannes for nearly a week. So it wouldn't be unusual to go to two to three 3 star restaurants while we were there. At each meal we had the same ritual. I would translate the menu for the table. Usually somewhere near the middle of my recitative, the captain would appear to make sure I wasn't screwing it up, or to help out on dishes that were idiomatic where you couldn't tell what was in them like Poulet Jean-Louis (take Jean-Louis and put him in the cavity of the chicken. Sorry French joke). Usually after he saw I had it under control, he would flit off to attend to other matters only to return five or ten minutes later to take our order. Then this is what happened next, and it happened 100% of the time we went out. And since we did this trip together as partners for about 7 years, it must have happened at least 20 times.  

My partner made the captain translate the menu all over again. He was a cheeseburger kind of guy. He wasn't really comfotable putting on a suit and being in Moulin de Mougins. So the way he overcame his anxiety at actually having to choose something to eat was to delay it, and that was the easiest way to do it. It always threw the captain's rhythm off as the time he had allocated for translating at our table was past. When he saw I could do it he thought he found an extra few minutes to do other stuff. Now he had to reallocate the time from elsewhere.

So he translated the whole thing over again while the rest of us were groaning with our heads in our hands. And after the captain finished, my partner asked the same question, 100% of the time "<b>Should I have the beef or should I have the Chicken?</b>" And when I tell you that I lived through this a few dozen times, I'm not exagerating. Another person who came with us every year would also ask the same silly question, "Do you have any pie?"

I'm sorry this type of thing happens to you. May you accept my apology on their behalf.

Steve Klc - You know I like special treatment. And it never bothers me that others get special treatment on a greater scale than I do. As long as there is a balance between the highest and the lowest I am happy. But to be honest, having 8 guys show up at Gramercy with a case of wine and having Collichio come out to the table to plan the menu with you, including his brainstorming to find the perfect dishes including things not on the menu is a great experience. It's the type of custom service that turns most of us on. And it's much more readily available than people know.

(Edited by Steve Plotnicki at 6:36 pm on Dec. 22, 2001)

[macrosan]

I think this is a great thread --- even greater than Adam Balic's Bio

Cabrales, you've certainly sparked a debate and provoked some fascinating insights.

I have to admit that the idea of asking a chef to cook a whole off-menu meal would never have occurred to me. Before this thread, I would have been terified even to ask !!! I find remarkable the thought that a chef would actually ENJOY the opportunity of doing this. I have just GOT to try it at the earliest opportunity.

...I hope I don't get kicked out... :)

[Bux]

When I read the first post in this tread, I wasn't sure what was being asked and now I'm not sure where the thread is going, but that hasn't stopped others from posting before.

Steve Klc, I have to ask what you meant when you noted "where Ducasse and Daniel exist alongside the likes of Craft and Prune?" I assume some sort of pairing is implied on both sides of "alongside." Craft is quite different from Ducasse and Daniel in certain aspects, but in no way like Prune especially when compared to Ducasse and Daniel in my judgement.

Steve Plotnicki said "it never bothers me that others get special treatment on a greater scale than I do." It shouldn't, yet someone once told me she had a wonderful meal at a wonderful restaurant. Both the food and service were exemplary and worth every penny it cost. Yet that person told me she'd never go back to that restaurant because she noticed others were treated even better. Once I was about to enter into a deal where someone else would profit more than I would, my lawyer, who was an older and wiser friend, advised me to consider only if I could get a better deal elsewhere and not to worry about what others got.

Plotnicki, as do others here and in other threads, describes how to improve your own service and treatment and the joy he experiences has nothing to do with what's happening at other tables. It has little to do with special favors. It has everything to do with enhancing his meal.

Should I be thrilled if a chef sends out something special. Absolutely. It's generally a sign he values my taste.

[Steve Klc]

No implied equivalence on either side Bux--sorry for the confusion.  In fact, I see them all as very different.  I could have added Gramercy Tavern and Union Pacific to the mix, too--each has a chef that has managed to attract attention in different ways and from different sources.  None of which Le Cirque was attracting anymore.

[Fat Guy]

One of the nicest things to see is special treatment bestowed upon a new customer, perhaps one from out of town who may never even come back to the restaurant. I remember once at Gramercy Tavern a captain came into the kitchen joking that a table had asked if the restaurant served bouillabaisse. Tom Colicchio, with his typical deadpan delivery, said, "They want bouillabaisse? I'll make them bouillabaisse." And, much to the chagrin of several harried and displaced line cooks, he proceeded to do it, from scratch, right then.

Even though I found that gesture incredibly charming, I don't particularly like the kind of restaurant that just cooks anything the customer wants. A place where you go and say, "I want fish X cooked by method Y with Z sauce," is not really in my mind a restaurant. It is, rather, a venue for rich people to get home meal replacement. I go to a restaurant -- above a certain price point, that is -- to experience the talent of a chef, which of course is hardly apparent in a piece of grilled fish with just lemon no butter.

Then again, it's not so easy to get a good piece of plain old sauteed or grilled fish. So I suppose I have a certain amount of respect for an establishment that can pull it off consistently.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux - So true. If I can get the meal I want, I'm happy. And if others are getting a better meal, I'm not envious. I want to know how to get it. I'm always surprised when people choose the pettiness of acting like they were snubbed to simply asking how to improve things.

Steven Shaw - I can see Collichio doing that. He is into his craft (no pun intended.) And the difference between a place like Gramercy and Le Cirque, is that in Gramercy they assume you know what you're talking about. At Le Cirque, you have to prove yourself.

Steve Klc (too many Steve's) - There's a reason that Le Cirque doesn't have to strive for that type of acclaim anymore. Their business is based on socialites. The food that socialites eat has been codified by guys like Sirio, Soltner, etc. and they just serve the stuff without a lot of variation.

In their defense, I recently attended a private wine dinner in a banquet room on the second floor. There were 17 people and we were allowed to bring our own wine. We had a preset menu that our host organized and I have to say the food was delicious. Not daring but correct, the portions were copious portions and everything about the night was top notch. Good enough to be a 2 star anywhere in France.

[Liza]

Fascinating thread. I think I might be one of those people who you offer to help. I cook often and extensively at home, love to dine out. My husband and I seem to ALWAYS get the worst table and the worst service whereever we go (except, of course, if I know the chef). We're in our 30s but maybe (!) look younger - could that be it? I thought we followed the protocal correctly - we make reservations in advance, always confirm. We dress appropriately and yet when we present ourselves, we inevitably get a once-over from the captain or hostess, and escorted away. The look is one which says, "They won't be spending any money." We don't ask stupid questions; we order creatively, and yet this persists. Could it be an age thing? Or must I add that we're not ogres?

[Fat Guy]

Liza: Where has this happened to you. Or, could you at least list the four or five worst offenders? I wonder if you're just eating at the wrong places!

[Bux]

Liza, Shaw took the words out of my mouth. Not all places have staff so attuned to the food. Some restaurants are about snobbism. Some restaurants have too large a turnover in staff to have the rapport between kitchen and dining room required. Danny Meyer trains his waiters better than anyone, but they're all not Gramercy Tavern.

Looking younger could certainly be a factor. I know some young professionals who seem to know most of the food world directly or indirectly, but when they wander into unknown territory, they can report some terrible service. On the whole, it comes from places where they didin't like the food either. In your case it seems that you like the restaurants enough to want better service or attention. Of course someone has to get the worst table if there is one. Are you among the youngest and a first time diner?

[Wilfrid]

Quote: from Steve Klc on 12:07 pm on Dec. 22, 2001
It takes more than pedestrian cooking to stay relevant today, even in a theatrically-designed space--especially in NYC where there are such high restaurant standards.

Hmm, interesting to read the comments posted about Le Cirque.  The point I didn't really make on this thread, although I made it elsewhere on the New York forum, is that -almost to my suprise - I have found the cooking at Le Cirque to be way better than pedestrian.  I won't repeat my description of my last meal there, but will say again that it was one of the best meals I have had in New York in many months.  This may go against the grain of majority opinions here (who cares?), but the meal was certainly better than the (good) meals I have had recently at Cafe Boulud, Bid, Union Pacific and Blue Hill, and streets ahead of a disastrous meal at the refurbished JoJo.  It was also not the most expensive meal on this list.

Another point I made on that other thread, was that one of the reasons I went to Le Cirque was that they were offering dishes outside the admittedly formulaic range of the typical 'menu for socialites' - tripe, blanquette de veau and so on.  

I wonder if I get a different perspective on this because I'm English - maybe I have different assumptions or maybe I'm just thick-skinned.  But I can't see how you have to 'prove' yourself in order to get good service at Le Cirque.  The interaction with the waitstaff at the beginning of the meal is surely pretty straightforward.  I order my tap water, like I always do, and then speak my food order, clearly, precisely and decisively.  Maybe other people don't do that.  I hardly feel I'm doing anything that merits good service, but perhaps there are other customers dithering, mumbling and dropping the menus.

,