26 replies to this topic

[Fat Guy]

I found the discussion elsewhere about Carbonara very interesting when it diverted into a general discussion of Italian food, and it made me think.  Does food history accurately document what alternatives were used to New World foods which have LATER become staples of various cuisines?  Tomatoes and Italian food.  Many Asian cuisines and Peanut Oil.  Corn and everybody.  Potatoes too, right?  Chocolate... So much of what we take for granted in modern food didn't exist in other parts of the world until relatively late in history.

Did rice, wheat, squash, etc. really take up all the slack?  Now I'm not really talking about Peasant food--the poor always ate differently--but what did the elite eat?

[Fat Guy x]

I think, for the most part, I wouldn't have wanted to be a food critic anywhere in the world prior to the 19th Century. It's not just a question of being stuck with a very limited spectrum of local-origin ingredients, it's also about lack of refrigeration and other technology that has made it possible to eat fresh, wholesome food year-round. I don't care how elite you were in the Middle Ages, your winter was a long one in terms of what you could get to eat. That is, if you could eat anything other than gruel given that your dental situation probably became pretty much unbearable after your teen years. If you lived that long.

Where was I? Oh, yes, many aspects of food history are pretty well documented in a number of books. It actually seems it's easier to find out what was on the menu at a banquet in Egypt three millennia ago than it is to find the origins of carbonara.

If you have 贝 to spare, you can get the two-volume Cambridge World History of Food, which contains enough information to defeat even the most acute case of insomnia.

The most enjoyable book I've read on this subject is, unfortunately, out of print. But you can probably find it around somewhere: Why We Eat What We Eat : How the Encounter Between the New World and the Old Changed the Way Everyone on the Planet Eats. It's one of the only food-history books written by somebody who actually loves and appreciates food. I know, you wouldn't think a non-food-lover would bother to pursue a career in writing about food history, but the food-academia subculture is full of just such people.

-----
Steven A. Shaw
www.fat-guy.com

[Michelle Ng x]

If you do a search for "food history" on Amazon nearly a thousand titles come up, many of which are relevant.

[Jason Perlow x]

Perhaps the greatest example we have from ancient times are the writings of Marcus Gavius Apicius, who lived in ancient Rome and recorded recipies of many dishes that were eaten by the elite as well as the common man at the time.

Heres some of his stuff that was translated from Latin:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mjw/recipes/ethnic/historical/ant-rom-coll.html

heres another site which includes stuff from medieval europe:

http://www.bahnhof.se/~chimbis/tocb/

[Fat Guy x]

There's even a Michelin two-star restaurant in Paris named after Apicius, though I don't think his recipes predominate.

-----
Steven A. Shaw
www.fat-guy.com

[Michelle Ng x]

Wasn't there recently a new magazine launched that deals with food history and academic food subjects?

[Preet Baba x]

You're probably thinking of Gastronomica.
http://www.gastronomica.org/

[Gil Shamir x]

Preet what do you think about Gastronomica? Does it show promise?

[Preet Baba x]

I thought the first issue, the only one I saw, was terribly weak. Should we add this as a new thread in the Media board?

[DonWalsh x]

all this makes a mockery of the purists who demand authenticity in all things; fusion has been the norm for hundreds of years there are no pure cuisines.

[Fat Guy]

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Quote: from donwalsh on 7:28 pm on July 22, 2001
all this makes a mockery of the purists who demand authenticity in all things; fusion has been the norm for hundreds of years there are no pure cuisines.
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Precisely.

[Fat Guy x]

I wouldn't go that far. There certainly has been a lot of cross-pollination of ingredients and techniques throughout history -- a process that is ongoing. And it's crazy to be a hyper-purist and to ignore that cuisines develop all the time. But there's a big difference between cuisine that has developed over hundreds of years, or even decades, and cuisine that a single chef invents in his head in five minutes. Time is a very important component of the evolution of cuisine. When it's dispensed with, results are mixed -- mostly bad. The occasional genius (Adria, Gagnaire) can create compelling fusion cuisine without reference to tradition, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.

-----
Steven A. Shaw
www.fat-guy.com

[Preet Baba x]

It's little different from the argument between innovation and traditionalism in any art form. The man of average talent is best advised to stick to the established conventions. The genius has a bit more flexibility.

[DonWalsh x]

still fat guy the point is there's no point in the crazy traditionalism of those people who are always decrying dishes as inauthentic adulterated etc... if it tastes good eat it and shut up

[Rosie]

Quote: from Gil Shamir x on 9:46 pm on Aug. 5, 2001
Preet what do you think about Gastronomica? Does it show promise?

I thought the magazine had some interesting articles but since I passed it on I don't remember which ones. I'll report on the next one I get. I have a book called Food in Antiquity by Don and Patricia Brothwell which deals with the eating and drinking habits of early people.I also have one called Food in History by Reay Tannahill. Has anyone read these books?

(Edited by Rosie at 11:30 am on Aug. 6, 2001)

[Nancy Berry]

If you're interested in food history, check out The Food Timeline website at http://www.gti.net/m...1/kid/food.html

Also check out the Culinary History Timeline website at
http://www.gti.net/m.../kid/food1.html

[Nancy Berry]

The following is an amazing bibliographic website that will be an enormous help to  anyone who is interested in food anthropology and history:

RESOURCES FOR THE ANTHROPOLOGICAL STUDY OF FOOD HABITS

http://lilt.ilstu.edu/rtdirks/

(Edited by Nancy Berry at 3:29 pm on Aug. 8, 2001)

[=Mark]

One of the New World ingredients that I've taken most interest in are chile peppers.  Can you imagine Thai, Indonesian or Indian cuisine without them?

[Rosie]

Hey =mark---Where did you find a logo that looks just like you?

[Adam_Balic]

Yes, and did you know that red peppers (and hence paprika) reached Hungary from South America via the Ottoman empire?

[Jinmyo]

What's all of this "x" stuff about?

[Adam_Balic]

Oh, look at the dates, this is from way back when everybody loved each other. Hence the kisses.

XOXOXOXO

[Jinmyo]

Ha ha ha.  

XOXOXO

[Adam_Balic]

Snigger.

[jhlurie]

Back at the VERY beginning (the non-public beta period) a few dozen of us were all Xtra-ordinary and Xtra-privledged.  We had to wear Dashikis and those funny brimless hats and were all known by "X" labels.

Not.

[=Mark]

Back at the VERY beginning (the non-public beta period) a few dozen of us were all Xtra-ordinary and Xtra-privledged.  We had to wear Dashikis and those funny brimless hats and were all known by "X" labels.

Not.

Since then Fat-Guy got a brim...

[thefoodhunter]

Excellent book on this topic is "Food - A culinary history from antiquity to the present" English edition by Albert Sonnenfeld published by Penguin books in 1999. Everything you always wanted to know about rotten fish sauce (garum) but didn't know where to look.