60 replies to this topic

[Adam Balic]

In Paula Wolfert’s very good “Good Food from Morocco” she describes tracking down a speciality of Marrakesh – “Tangia”. When she eventually found somebody that could make the dish for her, it turned out to be a meat stew cooked in a pot overnight in an oven. The ingredients were listed as: shoulder of lamb, saffron, cumin, garlic, preserved lemon, oil salt pepper.

While recently reading a translation of a medieval Arabic cookbook, by Charles Perry, I noticed a class of recipes described as ‘Tannur’. These are meat stews cooked overnight in an oven as well. Typical ingredients are: meat, carrots, onions, leeks, turnips, saffron, spices and a sweetener, such as date syrup.

As ‘Tannur’ means oven, would I be correct in guessing that the Tangia is closely related to, if not the descendent, of the medieval Tannur stews?

Also as Tannur = Tandoori, are there a similar class of dishes present in modern Indian cooking?

Edited by Adam Balic, 22 August 2003 - 06:36 AM.

[Suvir Saran]

There are dishes made for several centuries at the very least, and these are called Dum Pukht dishes.

They are slow cooked stews of meats with vegeatbles. Cooked in covered clay pots, they were sealed with bread to ensure none of the steam could escape.

Not sure if these dishes are related, but that is the closest connection I could think of.

[skchai]

From the way it's prepared, tanjia seems more like a relative of tagine (a casserole - named after its cooking vessel) than of tannur / tandoor. Wolfert doesn't say specifically if there's a relationship between the two (p. 240), but elsewhere she mentiones a fish dish called tagra that is a version of fish tagine (p. 176).

The Arabic tannur and Hindi / Urdu tandoor are definitely cognate terms, along with the Turkish / Central Asian tandir. Not sure who originated it, though American Heritage Dictionary claims it originates from the Akkadian tinuru, oven. Presumably Oxford Unabridged would have a more detailed etymology.

Seems like there are quite a few arguments about who was the true inventor of the tandoor, though perhaps not quite as raucous as arguments about who invented the pilaf / pilau / pulao.

[Adam Balic]

Yes, I thought that it was a variation on "Tagine", but after seeing the older arabic translation I questioned this. Tagine is derived from a the Greek word for 'dish' (which I can't remember) at the moment. The discription of the Tangia indicates a tall sided pot would be used (like a 'daubiere' I would guess), so quite a different cooking vessel.

[Adam Balic]

I found this link which has a picture of a tangia and a recipe.

tangia

Another site which sells the pots indicates that it is a dish popular with Students in Morocco and that they take there Tangia to a public oven to cook the dish.

Tangia = oven theory still alive, even strengthed due to the student link.

[skchai]

Paula Wolfert occasionally posts to Egullet. Perhaps (if she sees this) she would be kind enough to quench our great thirst for knowledge.

[Suvir Saran]

Paula Wolfert occasionally posts to Egullet.  Perhaps (if she sees this) she would be kind enough to quench our great thirst for knowledge.

Thirsty as well. I wish Paula Wolfert would post here and share more with us. Now we are at least two that have voiced our appreciation for that in advance.

[Wolfert]

hi everyone,
I was actually holding off on this subject. I have promised to do a moroccan cooking class for egullet early next year.

But I can see you're all hungry to know what I think about the subject, so here goes a very quick summary:
tannour, tabouna and tandir are pretty much stationary ovens with heat coming from beneath. Testo, tegamo, tians and tagras are portable ovens cooked between two sources of heat (top and bottom)--and in the case of the amphora shaped tangia--- smothered in coals). The tagine in Tunisia also uses top and bottom heat to cook its frittata type tagines. Only Algeria and Morocco use the conical topped tagine called toujan in Berber. It is thought to be Berber in origin. As you all know it uses collected steam to baste and cook food as it sits over one source of heat. I am not sure if gastra cooking in the balkans works in a similar way with its cloche or bell type top.
I'd love to know

Edited by Wolfert, 30 August 2003 - 08:16 AM.

[Adam Balic]

So much for amateur scholars then! And here I was developing a pet theory that Tangia were only cooked by men as it was a 'student' meal, and Tangia was derived from Tannar for similar reasons. Oh well.

I assume the tangia isn't completely smothered in coals though, otherwise they would drop into the stew?

When you cook "under the bell", the coals (in my family at least) are heaped around the sides of the vessel. My Croatian grandmother came from a very poor background. Photographs of the house she was brought up in (now a stable) show a central fire and a simple smoke hole in the roof. A cauldron on a chain was placed over the fire. If it was inverted it became a primative oven.

Thank you very much for your time and information.

Edited by Adam Balic, 01 September 2003 - 12:08 AM.

[Wolfert]

"So much for amateur scholars then! And here I was developing a pet theory that Tangia were only cooked by men as it was a 'student' meal, and Tangia was derived from Tannar for similar reasons. Oh well."

.
"When you cook "under the bell", the coals (in my family at least) are heaped around the sides of the vessel. My Croatian grandmother came from a very poor background. Photographs of the house she was brought up in (now a stable) show a central fire and a simple smoke hole in the roof. A cauldron on a chain was placed over the fire. If it was inverted it became a primative oven."

Sounds fantastic. And I want to learn more about this.

.But you are right! Tangia is a pot that is used by men to cook food for men: soldiers, sheepherders, etc. The top is covered with oiled parchment and tied down with string. the whole pot is pressed into the hot ashes (usually acorns).


I was wrong to suggest gastra in the grouping in my earlier posting. I should have mentioned the French dofeu which uses ice cubes to keep the moisture circulating.

Thank you very much for your time and information

Edited by Wolfert, 01 September 2003 - 12:36 AM.

[skchai]

Thanks to all of you for your time and information!

Getting back to Suvir's comment about Dum Pukht in North India - for this they traditionally do pile coals on top of the pot, which in turn is sitting on more coals. Wonder therefore whether this is an indigenous invention (plausible) or another Arab / Persian adaptation (equally plausible).

Suvir, do you know of the etymology for Dum Pukht (I know you are above punning)?

[Adam Balic]

[quote name='Wolfert' date='Sep 1 2003, 07:32 AM'] 5{Balic,Sep 1 2003, 12:07 AM] "So much for amateur scholars then! And here I was developing a pet theory that Tangia were only cooked by men as it was a 'student' meal, and Tangia was derived from Tannar for similar reasons. Oh well."

.
"When you cook "under the bell", the coals (in my family at least) are heaped around the sides of the vessel. My Croatian grandmother came from a very poor background. Photographs of the house she was brought up in (now a stable) show a central fire and a simple smoke hole in the roof. A cauldron on a chain was placed over the fire. If it was inverted it became a primative oven."
[/QUOTE]
Sounds fantastic. And I want to learn more about this.

.But you are right! Tangia is a pot that is used by men to cook food for men: soldiers, sheepherders, etc. The top is covered with oiled parchment and tied down with string. the whole pot is pressed into the hot ashes (usually acorns).


I was wrong to suggest gastra in the grouping in my earlier posting. I should have mentioned the French dofeu which uses ice cubes to keep the moisture circulating.

Thank you very much for your time and information [/quote]
I'm not sure that this is the best place for this comment, but I started the thread after all.

I guess that cauldron type cooking is common to most cultures at a particular stage. Why the Croatian's ended up with the 'Under the Bell', type home cooking being derived from this, rather then developing to a communal oven/baker cooking stage, I'm not sure. Maybe the region was to 'unstable' to have communal ovens for very long or this style of cooking was 'travel' food rather then home cooking.

From the look of the Tangia vessel it looks very similar to the French 'Daubiere' and also the 'Tuscan' bean pot (developed from the shape of the wine bottles I believe). I have also eaten a stewfood stew in Liguria that was cooking in an Amphora (baked in a bread oven), but I'm not sure that this is a traditional method.

So many ways to make a stew.

[Suvir Saran]

Thanks to all of you for your time and information! 

Getting back to Suvir's comment about Dum Pukht in North India - for this they traditionally do pile coals on top of the pot, which in turn is sitting on more coals.  Wonder therefore whether this is an indigenous invention (plausible) or another Arab / Persian adaptation (equally plausible). 

Suvir, do you know of the etymology for Dum Pukht (I know you are above punning)?

I do not actually!

And I do know that having coals on top of vessels was something done in other parts of India as well. Areas with minimal Persian/Arab influence.

[Adam Balic]

Thanks to all of you for your time and information! 

Getting back to Suvir's comment about Dum Pukht in North India - for this they traditionally do pile coals on top of the pot, which in turn is sitting on more coals. Wonder therefore whether this is an indigenous invention (plausible) or another Arab / Persian adaptation (equally plausible).

Suvir, do you know of the etymology for Dum Pukht (I know you are above punning)?

I do not actually!

And I do know that having coals on top of vessels was something done in other parts of India as well. Areas with minimal Persian/Arab influence.

From this site it would seem that Dum Pukht dishes are relatively recent:

Dum Pukht

Tandoor is almost certianly related to the Arabic 'Tannur'. Dum Pukht maybe not.

While many of these dishes, cooking techniques and cooking vessels are directly related to one another, in many cases I think that 'convergent evolution' plays a part.

[Wolfert]

"From the look of the Tangia vessel it looks very similar to the French 'Daubiere' and also the 'Tuscan' bean pot (developed from the shape of the wine bottles I believe). I have also eaten a stewfood stew in Liguria that was cooking in an Amphora (baked in a bread oven), but I'm not sure that this is a traditional method."


I think the shoulders on the amphora (bean) pot keep the liquid from evaporating.

[Adam Balic]

I think the shoulders on the amphora (bean) pot keep the liquid from evaporating

Then for cooking in a conventional western kitchen, on top of the stove may be better then in the oven?

Blast, my tuscan bean pot is shaped like a fat pear. No shoulders, so my plans are undone.

An excellent excuse to buy one of those lovely yellow glazed olive oil amphora from the South of France though!

[Wolfert]

a narrow top does the same thing as the shoulders.

I cook beans in a chinese sand pot in my clay-lined oven in the smallest amount of water. By the way, you don't have to cook beans in a large amount of water. In fact, it's actually
better if you use less. As Harold McGee writes in his On Food and Cooking, Science and Lore of the Kitchen:
"And it turns out, contrary to what we would expect, that seeds will actually absorb more water in a smaller volume of water: the less cooking water, the fewer carbohydrates are leached out, and the carbohydrates will take up about 10 times their own weight in water. This means, then, that seeds will seem softer in a given time if cooked in a minimal amount of liquid. So give the seeds enough water both to soak up and to cook in (many a pan bottom has been charred because the cook forgot that beans imbibe), but don't drown them.".

[Adam Balic]

I use a Tuscan method for cooking beans. Minimal water, with covering of olive oil. It workedd very well, as the means soak up all the water, remain intact and are almost bean 'confit' due to the final slow cooking in the olive oil. No I know why it works so well.

Strange that I have seen so few beans used in Moroccan recipes. Chickpeas, yes, Broad beans and possibly black eyed beans/peas. Maybe chickpeas are too popular.

[Wolfert]

you're right that white beans are less popular than chickpeas, lentils, favas and black eyed peas. It is very popular to combine beans of all sorts in soups and stews in north africa. There is one soup --a heavy one--prepared by the berbers of the Tassaout plain in Southern Morocco called urkimen, a
soup combining seven grains and beans: chick-peas, white beans, favas, lentils, barley, corn, and millet. That soup is guaranteed to keep you going all day!

[Adam Balic]

chickpeas, lentils, favas and black eyed peas.

These are all Old World pulses, I wonder if that is a clue? People can be very funny about their beans.

Berbers have stomachs of iron. I have sen them cook bread by placing a very loose dough mix directly onto coals/ash. The charcoal content would be very high, I imagine they would be able to digest some quite toxic plants after a meal of this bread.

[Suvir Saran]

Berbers are tribal and have had to endure centuries of abuse. Like most tribal people, they have learned to make the most of what they have and can enjoy. I was called Berber Hindustani by most of them. They would mistake me for an Indian actor called Saif Ali Khan. My bargaining nature would endear me to them. I enjoyed amazing foods and hospitality and generosity in their midst. The things that happened to me courtesy of the Berber people are worth writing a novel about.

Their stomachs are just as resillient and worthy as their mind, spirit and culture.

[Suvir Saran]

you're right that white beans are less popular than chickpeas, lentils, favas and black eyed peas. It is very popular to combine beans of all sorts in soups and stews in north africa. There is one soup --a heavy one--prepared by the berbers of the Tassaout plain in Southern Morocco called urkimen, a
soup combining seven grains and beans: chick-peas, white beans, favas, lentils, barley, corn, and millet. That soup is guaranteed to keep you going all day!

There is a poem in India that tells you about the importance of grains.

I have the entire poem written in my notebook that I do not have access to today, but I shall post here the two lines that I remember.

Ann kahe mai aana jaana
Gainhu kahe mai paar pahuchaana

Rice says that I come and go (meaning, do not depend on me for much substance)
Wheat says I will be able to take you across (meaning I shall be sustenance enough to make you go the distance)

and the poem continues....

[Wolfert]

that is far more beautiful than the southeastern turkish folk tale I know. In the tale rice and bulgur fight it out for first place at the table.
One day the two grains are chatting. I’m royal, says Rice, they eat me with yogurt at their feasts, they always cook me with love and offer me on silver platters.
What about you, Bulgur?
Humble Bulgur responds: They eat me whenever they like because I don’t have to be cooked first like you.

[Adam Balic]

Ann kahe mai aana jaana
Gainhu kahe mai paar pahuchaana

Rice says that I come and go (meaning, do not depend on me for much substance)
Wheat says I will be able to take you across (meaning I shall be sustenance enough to make you go the distance)

and the poem continues....

Interesting. I sounds like a 'learning song' which are common to many cultures. Basically, in a largely illerate society it is a oral-tradition way of transmitting important information.

There is often a bit about "If you don't cook me, I will give you tummy trouble" eg. I seeds with heat labile toxins need to be cooked before eating.

[Suvir Saran]

Ann kahe mai aana jaana
Gainhu kahe mai paar pahuchaana

Rice says that I come and go (meaning, do not depend on me for much substance)
Wheat says I will be able to take you across (meaning I shall be sustenance enough to make you go the distance)

and the poem continues....

Interesting. I sounds like a 'learning song' which are common to many cultures. Basically, in a largely illerate society it is a oral-tradition way of transmitting important information.

There is often a bit about "If you don't cook me, I will give you tummy trouble" eg. I seeds with heat labile toxins need to be cooked before eating.

I think you are correct about it being part of the oral tradition of teaching.

[Wolfert]

the only fault with this turkish folk tale being part of a learning experience is that bulgur is already cooked!

[Adam Balic]

I did wonder about that, but it is cooked and then dried again isn't it?

[Wolfert]

yes, it is dried again. But there are many Middle dishes that then use the bulgur with just a simple wet down. Tabouli and kisir being the most famous.

[Adam Balic]

I know some French-Algerians that make Tabouli with cous cous. Is this traditional thing or a cheat?

[Wolfert]

I don't think it is a cheat. The word tabouli is certainly borrowed from the middle east, but a type of couscous salad is made with freshly steamed couscous during the early summer when the women get together to roll couscous for year-long storage. At least in Tunisia it is. I've never seen a cold savory couscous in Morocco but a lot of things have changed in the 25 years since I left.

I have think the pied noirs in Marseille are more apt to make "couscous tabooli"