20 replies to this topic

[jrshaul]

I recently used a stupid quantity of very-nearly-expired vegetables and made a very serviceable ragout. I've never been much for simmering things for hours on end, but I braved the heat and, after much sweating, turned a lot of truly garbage canned tomatoes into a thoroughly edible sauce.

Sadly, I cannot justify the four hours of simmering required to repeat the experiment. I don't mind 40 minutes of mincing vegetables, but an all-afternoon cooking session just isn't worth it. Filling a crock pot with a completed sauce for several hours of unattended simmering would make this a highly time-effective endeavor, and also allow me to cook on the porch - greatly reducing my risk of heatstroke.

Has anyone done this? Should I just turn it on "Low" and hope for the best, or would using my PID controller be advisable?

Also, on a semi-related note for the next time I cook for a dozen or more: Can I get away with coarsely pureeing the carrots , garlic, and onions in a food processor? I'm not a big fan of carrot-bits in my sauce, and cutting onions is a PITA in a one-room apartment with no ventilation.

Edited by jrshaul, 05 July 2012 - 05:07 PM.

[patrickamory]

You can definitely use the food processor for the mirepoix ingredients. They will be reduced to sauce no matter what.

[pbear]

Yes, a crock-pot will work for this dish, but the PID will give you better results. The problem with a crock-pot is that it will boil eventually. With the PID, you can top out at whatever temp you like. For stuff like this, I put the probe in a ziploc, so it's not sitting directly in the sauce.

[Shalmanese]

Why does simmering take any work? If you have an exceptionally poor pan/stove and are worried about scorching, you can also do it in a 250F oven and get the same result.

[slkinsey]

Yes, you can do this in a slow cooker. I haven't made ragù any other way for years.

For something like ragù that really does get better and better the longer it's simmered (although it does change), there is no reason not to just use a regular slow cooker in the regular way. For anything you might want to do in a more temperature controlled way, unless you are prepared to figure out how to properly temperature control the slow cooker for "regular-style" cooking (just putting the temperature sensor in the middle of your ragù or stew won't work), the only way you can effectively use the PID is for sous-vide cooking in the slow cooker. I have done this a few times with ground meat dishes and have not particularly loved the result. So I would say that's not worth the hassle. For a stew where you want the stew meat cooked perfectly, I think it's worthwhile going sous vide.

[pbear]

How well "putting the temperature sensor in the middle of [the cooker]" works depends on how precise one needs it to be. Will it hold the temp of the whole pot within a degree of the set point? No. Will it keep the crock-pot from boiling? Yes (at a set point of, say, 185ºF). I don't do this much anymore, as some sort of bain marie set-up in a Sous Vide Supreme (e.g., canning jars) is easier, but before I got that I used to do this fairly often.

[hongda]

Is anything loss from lack of evaporation?

[jrshaul]

The Ziploc bag solution is a good one. I had hoped to just place the probe in the slow cooker at ~185F as suggested, but a Ziploc both simplifies the setup and means I don't actually have to clean the crock pot.

I also like the idea of making a meat and vegetarian sauce simultaneously.

Why does simmering take any work? If you have an exceptionally poor pan/stove and are worried about scorching, you can also do it in a 250F oven and get the same result.

The problem is a combination of low-quality stove (which I don't particularly trust unattended not to light the house on fire) and inadequate air conditioning. Anything that can move my food outside is a good thing.

Edited by jrshaul, 06 July 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[pbear]

Notice I only said to put the probe in a ziploc. The crock-pot still will get dirty. To avoid that, you'd have to use a liner (I don't bother) or move to a sous vide solution.

The point about lack of evaporation is a good one and something I overlooked because I'm used to doing that adjustment as a matter of course when cooking in a crock-pot. Here, the best solution probably would be to substitute paste for some of the tomato, but it's hard to be sure whether that will fit without seeing the recipe. I'll be interested to hear how slkinsey handles that issue.

[MelissaH]

I, too, am interested to hear about the evaporation issue. Would leaving the lid ajar do the trick, or is that a bad idea?

MelissaH

[jrshaul]

Notice I only said to put the probe in a ziploc. The crock-pot still will get dirty. To avoid that, you'd have to use a liner (I don't bother) or move to a sous vide solution.

I was referring to the sauce, not the probe. Currently, my crock pot *is* my SV cooker.

[Shalmanese]

Ugh, as much as we all love SV, can we agree that the mania for it has become somewhat obsessive? Let's all step back and take a breath before we head into crazy town. This question was about simmering some nearly expired vegetables, in a pot, for 4 hours. Unless the plan is to Keller up this bitch and SV each vegetable independently at it's correct time and temperature and then strain it pointlessly through 53 chinoises, it's still going to be some simmered vegetables in a pot. Delicious, yes, but not likely to be improved with SV.

Next time, just throw them in the slow cooker on low like you planned and it will turn out fine.

[Kerry Beal]

Ugh, as much as we all love SV, can we agree that the mania for it has become somewhat obsessive? Let's all step back and take a breath before we head into crazy town. This question was about simmering some nearly expired vegetables, in a pot, for 4 hours. Unless the plan is to Keller up this bitch and SV each vegetable independently at it's correct time and temperature and then strain it pointlessly through 53 chinoises, it's still going to be some simmered vegetables in a pot. Delicious, yes, but not likely to be improved with SV.

Next time, just throw them in the slow cooker on low like you planned and it will turn out fine.

"Keller up this bitch" - gotta use that one!

[jrshaul]

Ugh, as much as we all love SV, can we agree that the mania for it has become somewhat obsessive? Let's all step back and take a breath before we head into crazy town.

Before anyone accuses me of being a more competent chef than I actually am, I'd like to emphasize the possibilities of SV for labor-saving and idiotproofing. Crock pots are rather crass and unreliable devices, and the two settings on mine translate to "Hard boil" and "Not hot enough." It's not strictly necessary to use a PID controller, but since I have one rigged up anyway - why not?

I'm an amateur cook who sometimes cooks for groups as large as 25. I'm not even very good at it - I'm lucky to get out of the kitchen in less than three hours on a relatively basic meal. The ability to start two batches of pasta sauce in under an hour then cook them outdoors, in disposable containers, with zero oversight is miraculous; the ability to hold them at a safe 145F indefinitely, even more so. One of the most time-consuming foods I know has now become one of the least.

I hate canned food. I'm sick of the price, sick of the taste, and sick of the nutrition. And now, thanks to modern technology, I get to eat a little less.

Edited by jrshaul, 08 July 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[slkinsey]

The point about lack of evaporation is a good one and something I overlooked because I'm used to doing that adjustment as a matter of course when cooking in a crock-pot. Here, the best solution probably would be to substitute paste for some of the tomato, but it's hard to be sure whether that will fit without seeing the recipe. I'll be interested to hear how slkinsey handles that issue.

In my opinion, if you are making a traditional mostly-meat ragù and you find yourself in need of reduction by evaporation, you're doing it wrong. There shouldn't be a ton of tomato product in a meat ragù. That said, I don't cook my ragùs by chucking everything into the slow cooker raw and turning it on. Typically, I will soften the aromatic base, "brown" the ground meats, and do the wine and milk additions all on the stovetop. I will then reduce this down to a pretty tight consistency before transferring it to the slow cooker. That whole process takes maybe 30 minutes. As others have suggested, you can also prop up the lid with a chopstick near the end to facilitate evaporation (although a quick stir usually reveals that the extra liquid you think you have to get rid of is really a false impression created by stratification).

[Shalmanese]

Ugh, as much as we all love SV, can we agree that the mania for it has become somewhat obsessive? Let's all step back and take a breath before we head into crazy town.

Before anyone accuses me of being a more competent chef than I actually am, I'd like to emphasize the possibilities of SV for labor-saving and idiotproofing. Crock pots are rather crass and unreliable devices, and the two settings on mine translate to "Hard boil" and "Not hot enough." It's not strictly necessary to use a PID controller, but since I have one rigged up anyway - why not?

I'm an amateur cook who sometimes cooks for groups as large as 25. I'm not even very good at it - I'm lucky to get out of the kitchen in less than three hours on a relatively basic meal. The ability to start two batches of pasta sauce in under an hour then cook them outdoors, in disposable containers, with zero oversight is miraculous; the ability to hold them at a safe 145F indefinitely, even more so. One of the most time-consuming foods I know has now become one of the least.

I hate canned food. I'm sick of the price, sick of the taste, and sick of the nutrition. And now, thanks to modern technology, I get to eat a little less.

You can't cook vegetables at 145, the cellulose and pectin won't break down at that temperature. It's not clear whether you're making a all-vegetable ragout or vegetable and meat one. As others have noted above, SV meat in a stew is disconcerting and taster usually prefer traditionally braised just because it's more familiar. For vegetables alone, as long as there's no scorching, I'm not sure that hard boiling is neccesarily any different from gentle simmering, apart from more evaporation. It's likely that your crockpot "too low" setting is around 180 - 190F which is generally the accepted SV temp for most vegetables.

In my opinion, if you are making a traditional mostly-meat ragù and you find yourself in need of reduction by evaporation, you're doing it wrong. There shouldn't be a ton of tomato product in a meat ragù. That said, I don't cook my ragùs by chucking everything into the slow cooker raw and turning it on. Typically, I will soften the aromatic base, "brown" the ground meats, and do the wine and milk additions all on the stovetop. I will then reduce this down to a pretty tight consistency before transferring it to the slow cooker. That whole process takes maybe 30 minutes. As others have suggested, you can also prop up the lid with a chopstick near the end to facilitate evaporation (although a quick stir usually reveals that the extra liquid you think you have to get rid of is really a false impression created by stratification).

Evaporation rate is roughly proportional to the surface area of the pan while quantity evaporated is proportional to volume. In a 12" skillet, it might take 30 minutes but a dutch oven would take 2 - 3 hours due to it's greater volume and smaller area. I don't really find much of a point to making small quantities of ragu so I'll generally make mondo batches and freeze. I find I have to reduce the wine by 1/2 separately and use cream instead of milk just to get it the consistency right.

[pbear]

jrshaul: I'm confused. In Post #8, you accepted my idea of using a temp of about 185ºF. In Post #14, you talk about using 145ºF. Those are very different. I've been assuming we're talking about a mixed meat and veggie sauce, both from the thread title and where you said in Post #8 that you "like the idea of making a meat and vegetarian sauce simultaneously." If so, Shalmanese is right that 145ºF is far too low for the veggies. For that matter, at that temp, four hours would be too little for reducing the collagen in the meat. For that, you'd need at least twelve, preferably eighteen to twenty-four. And the veggies still would be effectively uncooked. So, let's go back to 185ºF, a temp comparable to what you did with a conventional stove-top simmer. Be aware that, if you do this in ziploc (which wasn't my recommendation, but I understand why you want to go that way), you need to vent the bag (e.g., with a stent). Otherwise, steam will build up and vent it anyway. Better a planned venting than an accidental one.

Shalmanese: Frankly, I don't understand why you object to using a PID to control a crock-pot. Once one has selected the parameters (I use P = 40 and I & D = 0, which I find reliably settles at one degree below the set point), it takes less than a minute to set up the cooker. Nothing like 53 chinoises. Not so important if the OP were making an all-veggie sauce, but I'm pretty certain he's doing a mixed meat-and-veggie one. For that, I assume you agree not boiling the meat is a valid objective. And, in my experience, a crock-pot, even on low, eventually boils the meat unless interdicted by a PID.

slkinsey: I agree that a traditional ragu (mostly meat with little tomato) doesn't have a significant evaporation issue. The OP, though, seems to be doing something different.

[nickrey]

If you want to do a one-pot meal, traditional methods are probably best.

However personally I'm moving more toward cooking the various ingredients in the way that brings out their best and then combining them to give a product that has complexity of flavour and texture that cannot easily be achieved in normal cooking. If you are going to prepare your vegetables sous vide, cook them at the higher heat that brings out their best. Sear the meat to get a Maillard effect then cook low and slow to bring out the best of this item. Continue with all the other items (eg. caramelisation of onions, cook chopped mushrooms in butter, etc.) Once all items are cooked to your satisfaction, combine them. Let them sit for a while so the flavours can blend, then reheat and serve. This is not difficult cooking nor particularly time intensive for the cook but it does require planning. Good luck.

[jrshaul]

jrshaul: I'm confused. In Post #8, you accepted my idea of using a temp of about 185ºF. In Post #14, you talk about using 145ºF. Those are very different. I've been assuming we're talking about a mixed meat and veggie sauce, both from the thread title and where you said in Post #8 that you "like the idea of making a meat and vegetarian sauce simultaneously."

145F is referenced as a convenient temperature for safely holding a sauce. A crock pot doesn't do this very well without the addition of PID.

[jrshaul]

On a semi-unrelated note, has anyone done SV meatballs?

Edited by jrshaul, 11 July 2012 - 02:40 AM.

[MelissaH]

I haven't tried SV meatballs, but I'd be worried about them getting squished out of ball form when I vacuum-sealed them.

MelissaH