21 replies to this topic

[Umbra7 Design]

First of all i would like to express how impressed i am with this site and the valuable opinions people have posted on it, especially about kitchen knives.

I am a second year Industrial Design student at Brunel University, currently undertaking a kitchen brief. My current process has lead me to trying to design a set of 5 knives (Chef, Paring, Utility, Carving, Bread). I have learnt a lot through reading these posts on what makes a good knife good and what to avoid.

What makes the design different is that if am aiming these knives at people with little knowledge of proper food preparation and knife technique. The design comes with altering the shape of the handles to encourage good practice. For example with the chefs knife i intend to include a sloped edge to the blade to make the chefs 'pinch grip' more comfortable and natural for those not used to it, perhaps with a textured surface in the areas where your thumb/finger should rest.

Essentially guys, is there anything you can tell me to help with consideration of all aspects a novice knife user could be helped with minimal instruction to use these knives correctly - by the design of the knives themselves.

Thank you.
Luke Firth
Brunel University School Of Engineering And Design.

[Eastgate]

In addition to suggesting the right grip, you might discourage the wrong one-- holding the very end of the handle. This will be an interesting design problem, as you normally need that handle for balance, and for picking up the idle knife.

[HowardLi]

It's really too bad that the design thread for the Hattori forum knives at knifeforums.com is gone; that was a wealth of information.

[Dave the Cook]

It's worth looking at the bolster/handle design of Shun's Ken Onion line. They're not for everyone -- you have to have the right-sized hand for it to be truly comfortable -- but here's what I've observed many times in our beginners' cooking classes: there are always one or two people who just can't figure out the pinch grip, no matter how we describe it, demo it, or explain the advantages of it. Once we wrap their fingers around a Ken Onion, though, light bulbs go off.

[TheTInCook]

An offset gratin edged slicer seems like it would be a good Knife to have.

[IndyRob]

I read somewhere that knife selection is a very personal thing. A knife comfortable for someone with dainty hands might be a knuckle buster for the large handed. Perhaps an adjustable handle might be an interesting design feature (might lead to balance issues though). Or, perhaps a blade that can accept a variety of handles that are all designed for the blade, but suit different people (that really doesn't go to the design goal, though).

Another thought is whether a chef's knife really needs a point. I don't think that it is (or should be) often called upon for stabbing things. So perhaps a point design that visually suggests that it's meant to be slid on the block. Taken to a ludicrous degree, it could have a roller at the tip. This would be stupid, of course, but would be a clear indication that it's not meant for hacking away at stuff.

[ETA]I was just reflecting on dicing onions. Normally I use one of my chef's knives, but if a santoku is the only one clean at the moment, I'll use that. Upon reflection, in these cases, my approach and mechanics change significantly, so I think you're on the trail of a good idea.

Edited by IndyRob, 11 March 2012 - 02:47 PM.

[Paul Bacino]

Here is what I would do.. develop a way to use silicone impressions of a persons hand.. then adapt .. a custom fit / hand gripped knife.. kinda a like a custom orthodic...

Paul

BTW I like a thicker tang/ bolster blended into the blade!!

Would you giny ( sp ) pig me !!!!!!

Edited by Paul Bacino, 11 March 2012 - 06:16 PM.

[Ashen]

A handle that can be weight adjusted for better balancing in different hands. Golf drivers have started to go this way as well. I think it would be fairly easy to do this on the back butt of the knife , so that it could even be hidden . If you could figure it out you might even be able to make the blade weight adjustable too.

[dcarch]

I don't see much need to design the shape of the handles of knives. billions of dollars of design time have already been spent by knife companies.

One thing that no one seemed to have dealt with:

Kitchen counters are basically one standard height, but people come in all lengths.

The angle of the blades may be should be variable for tall or short people.

dcarch

Edited by dcarch, 11 March 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[Edward J]

If the knives are designed for people with no food preparation or prior knife experience, you will have several challenges to overcome. The below listed are based on my personal opinion:

1) When observing family members and employees, the natural inclination seems to be to use the smallest knife possible. I have witnessed--on more than one occasion--family members trying to halve a watermelon with a boning knife, as well as employees slicing tomatoes with boning knives or paring knives, cutting pullman hams in half with a paring knife, etc. In each instance, an ample supply of knives of various sizes was available.

2) Some people believe that dull knife is much safer than a sharp one, and are scared (deleted) of a sharp knife. They would rather mash and smoosh a tomato with a dull one than to have a sharp knife handy.

3) Many people believe that a knife edge is infinite, that it will last forever. And, of course there is a lot of hype from knife mnfctrs that feeds this belief. Many also believe that sharpening is something that is mystical, takes years to learn, and is done far away, or is/should be covered by warranty or something like that. I know better than to show up at a family member, relative, or friend's house for dinner without tossing a sharpening kit in the car. And though I try to explain the basics of sharpening--what is sharp, and what is dull, a glazed look forms over their eyes, and they panic and question me, "But you'll do my knives again for Easter brunch, right?


So, if your knife is to be targeted for people with no knife experience, some thought to the above observations should be taken into consideration.

[Umbra7 Design]

I asked for help, and you sure didn't disappoint. Thank you everyone for your comments, i have some very interesting aspects to explore now that i just hadn't considered before. This project is getting more and more rewarding as the sheer amount of things to learn about the design of kitchen knives is wonderful. Since i last posted i have refined the shaping of the handle down somewhat as to bring it more in line with smaller hands and look more like what people expect (and feel comfortable using) yet still keeping the important aspects required to make it help grip. The blade has formed something slightly between a santoku and traditional chefs knife (much closer to chefs still), to discourage the tendency to stab at food whilst not making it impossible if that is what you must do.

The Shun Ken Onion line has been very helpful to analyse in regards of form with the handle and what exactly makes it that much easier to grip properly.

Although i do love the idea of being able to adjust the blade angle for people and the weight (something i am particularly interested in) i'm finding difficulty implementing these kind of features without making the knife way too high a price point for the intended users and dangers with moving parts and harbouring bacteria with little areas difficult to reach and clean properly.

[IndyRob]

Oh, and it has to have a USB hub and wireless internet.

[Panaderia Canadiense]

I'll pipe in here, as a very tall somebody with improbably small hands (176 cm but gloves only size 6). Blade angle needs to be factored in (as I believe was mentioned above) but if you're encouraging a pinch grip you'll also need to make sure that the choils are dulled - I'm not sure what the standards are in Europe, but here in Latin America almost all knives come with sharp-pointed choils (Japanese standard) that need to be filed down before the knife is put into use, in order to prevent lots of unnecessary bleeding.... You might also think about shaping the choils to accept the proper finger position on the paring and utility knives.

[TheTInCook]

One thing that no one seemed to have dealt with:

Kitchen counters are basically one standard height, but people come in all lengths.

The angle of the blades may be should be variable for tall or short people.

dcarch

OMG! If somebody could invent an easily adjustable height prep s/s prep table, my back would thank you. You'd make a fortune selling those things.

[Edward J]

Yup, it'll cost you 3 bucks. Go down to any home improvement store and buy 4 bricks. Keep them in your locker, and when you start your shift, shove one under each table leg. End of the shift, put em back in your locker. I've known several 2 m tall guys who did this.

Almost as easy is "Adjustable table height". Don't adjust the table, adjust the floor. Again, I've know several "Vertically challenged" people who had a wood sub-floor/box type thingee made for them, about 18" wide and maybe 24-36" long. At the end of their shift, they just shoved the thing under the table. Same for dishpits.

[Umbra7 Design]

The project is coming along nicely, however i was wondering what people's opinions are to different materials;

In terms of the blade, i feel a more standard stainless steel would be required as opposed to the high carbon used in many high end knives as in the end i am still aiming these at a price point not out of reach of your average persons top end and thusly the user may not be willing or prepared to look after the knife in the best way to keep them from becoming damaged. However as raised by Edward J, most people think blades are infinite and with a lower carbon steel losing its edge so much quicker, it might be an issue if they are not prepared to sharpen/hone it as often as they should.

Its a balancing act and i don't want to go serrated, in your experiences has anyone come across a good middle ground?

[Panaderia Canadiense]

ATS-34 and CPM-T440V are good steels to look at - both are stainless, but are harder than "standard" stainless and hold their edges better and for longer.

Another thought is to include a steel in your set (handled to match the knives) - it's an invaluable tool in the kitchen and something that beginners should learn to use along with the basic skills of knives themselves. I sharpen about once a month on most of my knives, but I steel them daily before use.

[Edward J]

I'm very reluctant to suggest including a "foolproof" sharpening system with the knife, because "they" will invent a better fool.

However.... I have had some success in teaching complete newbies to get a half-decent edge on softer knives (Victorinox) with the cheap guided stone-on-a-rod system. One bonus of this system is that it is manual, and therefor much harder to remove serious amounts of steel quickly.

Harder steels do keep their edge longer, no arguement there, but you also need "better" abrasives to get an edge when it is time to sharpen, and Newbie's knives get a lot of abuse.

[Dakki]

The project is coming along nicely, however i was wondering what people's opinions are to different materials;

I wouldn't try to choose a material before checking out your suppliers, particularly the heat treatment people. I'd find out what equipment they use and which materials they're most comfortable working with and make my decision based on that, not a spec sheet or the Internet's flavor of the month.

Google informs me Brunel University is in the UK. I'm not really familiar with the steel supply chain over there, but assuming you have easy access to Swedish steels something like AEB-L (or the Sandvik clone, I don't remember what it's called) would be an excellent choice, as long as the HT people are thoroughly familiar with it. Devin Thomas and other highly regarded USA knife makers go to some trouble to procure it despite the ridiculous wealth of American standard alloys immediately available. On the other hand, if you're manufacturing in Pakistan or China or USA, you should choose materials that are widely available and understood there.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, IMHO the three most important things to consider to assure the final quality of your knives are heat treatment, heat treatment and heat treatment. Alloy chemistry is #4.

[dcarch]

You spent a lot of time to come up with a truly great design, the next day, everyone will have a copy of your design.

How do you protect your work? There are not too many knife design ideas which can be patentable.

dcarch

[Heartsurgeon]

i want 10% of your gross, when you market this:

create a knife handle that is customized to the grip of each owner - using SUGRU
it is a moldable silicone based adhesive that cures at room temp, and retains some flexibility.
you could have SUGRU inserts at key locations on the knife grip/handle, that would allow the user to imprint their own finger patterns (or entire grip) into the handle.
Bespoke knives, customized by the user at home.

[DocDougherty]

There is a design trick that produces a serrated edge on a single bevel blade every time it is sharpened the correct way. The back of the blade (the flat or concave side) is ground or etched with micro-grooves which become the teeth of the serrations when the opposite side is beveled and polished. The depth of the grooves determines how aggressive the serrations are. The issues are educating the user on how to cut with a single sided edge, and how to sharpen the blade correctly. It is a very dangerous blade.

For a consumer knife, there is the issue of stocking left handed and right handed blades, but it might also open up the opportunity to design a non-symmetric handle.

Edited by DocDougherty, 18 March 2012 - 05:12 PM.