64 replies to this topic

[Tweety69bird]

Hi everyone,

I haven't been here in a long while and when I came across this problem I knew exactly where to go! Hope someone can help.

I have to make a plated dessert, creme brulee cooked on top of a cake. Every recipe I try, the brulee mix soaks into the cake. I've tried a number of different recipes to no avail. Searching the internet resulted in some great pics, but nothing more.

Anyone have experience with this or a recipe I can use? The only stipulation is that the cake has to be vanilla.

Thank you!!

[mkayahara]

Can you put some kind of moisture barrier between the cake and the custard, like a thin layer of cocoa butter?

[Tweety69bird]

Do you think that would work? I suspect the cocoa butter would melt and blend in as it cooks?

[Jaymes]

Hi everyone,

I haven't been here in a long while and when I came across this problem I knew exactly where to go! Hope someone can help.

I have to make a plated dessert, creme brulee cooked on top of a cake. Every recipe I try, the brulee mix soaks into the cake. I've tried a number of different recipes to no avail. Searching the internet resulted in some great pics, but nothing more.

Anyone have experience with this or a recipe I can use? The only stipulation is that the cake has to be vanilla.

Thank you!!

You say you have to make the plated dessert with the creme brulee cooked on top of the cake. I'm curious as to where you got that request and are there any more instruction/stipulations?

Because most custard-type things, like a creme brulee, need to be cooked in a bain marie (I think), which I guess might be do-able on top of a cake (I'm not a baker or a pastry chef by any means), but that doesn't sound feasible to me.

On the other hand, I make several recipes with a custard (creme brulee, flan, etc.) that comes out on top of the cake. But you make your cake batter, pour it into your pan, pour in the custard, it sinks to the bottom just as you say, you bake it with the bottom part of the pan, and therefore the custard, in a bain marie.

Then, when it's done, you take it out of the oven and invert it, so that the custard is now on top.

Then you can add some sugar and caramelize or whatever.

This is usually done in a bundt pan or angel-food cake pan in my experience, but I've done it in a regular cake pan as well. The main problem if you bake it in a regular cake pan is that when you invert the cake, the top of the cake might have risen so that the cake won't rest flat when it's upside down on the plate. So you have to trim it off to make it level before you invert. As I said, I'm not a pasty chef and don't know all of the ins and outs of cake baking, so there might be a way to make that cake bake flat on top so you don't have to trim, but I don't know what it is. It's not a problem in a bundt pan, but with a regular cake pan, it is.

And for my chocolate & vanilla flan cake, I always pour a jar of cajeta into the bundt pan before the cake mix. So when I unmold the whole thing, the dark chocolate cake winds up on the bottom, and the creamy white vanilla custard winds up on top with the caramelly cajeta dripping down. Not only delicious, but visually stunning.

Like I said, not sure what other instructions you have, but I can't help but suspect you need to bake the custard on the bottom of the cake in a bain marie, and then invert it in some manner. I just don't see how it's possible to do it otherwise.

And in so far as the "right cake" to use - I've made it with all sorts of cakes, including box mixes, etc. I don't think there's any specific cake mix recipe that works vs one that won't work. I think any regular basic cake recipe works fine.

As I said, I'm not a baker or a pastry chef and, in fact, that's my weakest area of expertise, so this might not be helpful at all but, since you threw it out there for anyone to answer, that's my two cents.

Edited by Jaymes, 09 March 2012 - 11:33 AM.

[Tweety69bird]

Thank you for your reply Jaymes! The request came from my chef at the restaurant I work at. What I've been trying to do is bake the cake first, then when it cools (I've tried waiting a few hours, to freezing the cake and thawing it, hoping the results would change) the brulee mix is poured ontop of the cooked cake that has been cut with a ring mold and baked like that.

I generally do cook my brulee in a bain marie, but I don't see how that could be possible for this instance. The ring mold is only 2 1/2" so it' pretty small and I suspect would cook quick enough, if I could get it to stay on top of the cake instead of soaking into it.

Your method of cooking it upside down is a great idea, do they layers come out as two distinct layers?

[Jaymes]

Your method of cooking it upside down is a great idea, do they layers come out as two distinct layers?

Yes, totally. It looks as though you've baked a cake and then put some custard on top.

I think it's perfect for your needs.

[KennethT]

What about doing the creme on the stovetop or sv? Then, pipe the finished creme onto the cakes and refrigerate until service... then add sugar and brulee at service

[Jaymes]

Your method of cooking it upside down is a great idea

Feel the need to point out that it's not really "my" method. It's a method that I got from the hostess of a spectacular dinner party quite a number of years back when we were living in Tucson. And, in her terrific book, "My Sweet Mexico," Fany Gerson gives the recipe for "Impossible Chocolate Flan Cake" on page 153.

I've made it many times, though, since I first had it in Tucson, often combining different cakes/custards. One of the best combinations is a spice cake to which I've added a little Cap'n Morgan's spiced rum on the bottom, with an orange flan on the top. First, I put some brown/raw/piloncillo/panela/tourbanado/whatever sugar in the bottom of the bundt pan. Then some grated orange zest. Then pour the spice cake batter in very carefully so as to disturb the sugar and orange zest as little as possible, and then the orange flan batter.

Very nice.

Edited by Jaymes, 09 March 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[Prabha]

Wow, never heard of this before. So cool!

[Chris Hennes]

I agree with Jaymes, this is almost certainly the easiest route to go. I suspect you could figure out a way to go all Modernist on it (I do a lot of "custards" using various gelling agents), but I don't think it's necessary, these Mexican "impossible" cakes are probably just what you are looking for.

[Jaymes]

I think the only tricky bit might be putting that traditional hard caramel crust on top of your creme brulee. I don't know...just speculating here. But usually the sugar is contained in the ramekins so when you zap it with a blowtorch, or run it under a salamander, or however you do it, the sugar goes all runny, but can't go anywhere before it hardens.

If you invert your cake/custards, now the custard is on top, and not contained. I suppose if you thoroughly chill it, you could put a small pile of sugar in the center on top and then quickly zap it with a torch and it might stay put long enough to harden. Or perhaps you could put the cake/custard into some sort of ring mold or springform pan or do something else to contain the tops while you add the sugar and caramelize.

[Chris Hennes]

Cheat: make the sugar topping completely separate and plate it atop the finished dish at service time.

[Tri2Cook]

I suspect you could figure out a way to go all Modernist on it (I do a lot of "custards" using various gelling agents)

And that is exactly what I would do. Use the right gelling agents (a combo of agar and gelatin works well but there are other options) and you can hold the custard insert at room temp or even warm it. That with a pre-made sugar disc (or whatever shape the cake is) to drop on top means no risk of failure and no loss of quality.

[Jaymes]

I suspect you could figure out a way to go all Modernist on it (I do a lot of "custards" using various gelling agents)

And that is exactly what I would do. Use the right gelling agents (a combo of agar and gelatin works well but there are other options) and you can hold the custard insert at room temp or even warm it. That with a pre-made sugar disc (or whatever shape the cake is) to drop on top means no risk of failure and no loss of quality.

Brilliant. I'm so thrilled that the more-knowledgeable-than-I (not that that's particularly difficult) Pastry Cavalry has arrived!

Looks like you'll have several options now, Tweety69.

Success can't be far away!

[Tri2Cook]

Brilliant. I'm so thrilled that the more-knowledgeable-than-I (not that that's particularly difficult) Pastry Cavalry has arrived!

Looks like you'll have several options now, Tweety69.

Success can't be far away!

I'm going to put my money on not-more-knowledgeable-than-you. It was just another option, not necessarily a better option.

[JeanneCake]

Is it possible for you to use the ring mold to cut an already cooked sheet (hotel pan) of custard (your usual mix)and put it on the round of cake and then use the preformed sugar disk (or a florentine cookie kind of thing) on top?

The stovetop recipe from Dessert University works pretty well for piping onto the top of the baked cake.

Let us know how it works out With Pictures, please!

[Tri2Cook]

Is it possible for you to use the ring mold to cut an already cooked sheet (hotel pan) of custard (your usual mix)and put it on the round of cake and then use the preformed sugar disk (or a florentine cookie kind of thing) on top?

That's a good question. I didn't think of that one because my standard creme brulee custard (that will remain in a container of some sort) couldn't be cut and moved without destroying it. The agar/gelatin stabilized custard isn't quite as soft and creamy as without but it's very close. It doesn't take much to stabilize it enough for the task, especially if it's on top and doesn't have to support anything. The textural difference between the stabilized and not is actually really difficult to discern in the context of a cake insert unless you want to notice and investigate it independent of the other components. I consider it a more than worthwhile tradeoff for the risk-reduction (it won't soften enough to slide off if it gets warm) it adds but if the person's standard custard is up to the job without assistance, that would be the way to go for purity of traditional texture.

[Chris Hennes]

Carrageenan might be a better gelling agent than agar/gelatin if there is concern about it getting warm: I made a iota/kappa-thickened custard last week that got molded and then served at 160°F, and it's pretty easy to handle when cold.

[Karri]

Instead of baking the creme brulee, why don't you cook it like a crema catalana? Make a heavy pastry cream and just pour it on top of your cake and let it set in the fridge.

[Tri2Cook]

Carrageenan might be a better gelling agent than agar/gelatin if there is concern about it getting warm: I made a iota/kappa-thickened custard last week that got molded and then served at 160°F, and it's pretty easy to handle when cold.

The stability of the agar/gelatin combo might surprise you if you haven't worked with it much (I'm not assuming you haven't, I just don't know if you have). I don't think heat much above room temp is going to be a factor for this purpose though, I can't imagine the chef insisting they be baked together if it's not necessary just because that was the original idea. Gelatin and agar are commonly found in or easily and inexpensively sourced by restaurants which is why I mentioned them specifically but if carrageenans are available in Tweety's kitchen I agree that it's a good path to follow.

[Tweety69bird]

Thank you so much for all of your amazing replies, they are so much appreciated! I went MIA becuase I had to leave for work.

Instead of baking the creme brulee, why don't you cook it like a crema catalana? Make a heavy pastry cream and just pour it on top of your cake and let it set in the fridge.

I did try something like this tonight. I basically made the brulee mix with 8 yolks to 1 cup milk/cream, in a pastry creme method. When it cooled it was a nice thick consistency. When I poured it on the cake and baked it, it stayed seperate and basically was a success... however, the texture once I tasted it was not nice, the brulee was curdled. I made a second batch with 6 yolks this time, with the same results. I am thinking that I overcooked my mix on the stove, but was very careful (especially the second time!). When I tasted the unbaked mix, it was nice and creamy.

So, I figure I need to find a happy marriage between the number of yolks and baking temperature. I baked them at 300 for 15 min.

I can't imagine the chef insisting they be baked together if it's not necessary just because that was the original idea. Gelatin and agar are commonly found in or easily and inexpensively sourced by restaurants which is why I mentioned them specifically but if carrageenans are available in Tweety's kitchen I agree that it's a good path to follow.

Actually my chef is pretty particular and insists on them being baked together. I had popped onto my phone to read responses on this thread while at work and tried to get him to let me try that and got a flat no.

I feel better about where I'm at after today and think I will practice a bit more. If the curdled issue is only from my stovetop cooking of the mix and not from baking it, I'm not too far from my goal. Anyone have thoughts on this?

We have gelatin at work, so I might go that route.

Thank you all! Of course I will take pictues of my final result.

[runwestierun]

Did you bake the bottom custard section protected in a water bath? I think if you half submerged the pan in boiling water it might take care of the curdling.

[Tweety69bird]

Did you bake the bottom custard section protected in a water bath? I think if you half submerged the pan in boiling water it might take care of the curdling.

I cooked the mix on the stove, once tempering and adding the yolks. Then I poured it onto a ring mold with a cake layer on the bottom and baked, so a water bath wouldn't be possible.

Perhaps I should move to a bain marie once the yolks have been added.

[Lisa Shock]

The curdling is due to it being baked at too high of a temperature. You're trying to marry two things with very different oven needs into one pan.

[Tweety69bird]

The curdling is due to it being baked at too high of a temperature. You're trying to marry two things with very different oven needs into one pan.

I agree, I'm not fond of this dessert, but need to come up with a solution. I baked them at 300. I'm going to try the bain marie even with a thermometer to eliminate the stovetop being the cause of the curdling and see how that goes. That might not be until Monday though.

[Tri2Cook]

If chef considers following his idea to the letter more important than the result then you're in a tough position. If you're baking the cake, pouring on a custard base and baking again, the cake is being overbaked. It's also going to leach moisture from the custard base changing the texture of both the cake and the resulting custard. If chef refuses to budge on this, maybe use Jaymes' idea of the custard cake, bake them in individual serving dishes and cover the top of each ramekin with a premade sugar disc before serving. The custard will be on the bottom but they'll be baked together since that seems to be the party trick he wants. I don't know the situation you're working in or I'd suggest diplomatically telling chef that people have to eat my dessert so it's more important to me that they enjoy eating it than be amazed because they were baked together.

[Jaymes]

I realize that the Chocolate Flan Cake isn't what your chef wants on several levels, but since we've been talking about it, and since you asked if the layers remain separate and distinct, thought I'd google a few images:

Chocolate Flan Cake

ETA - Since I have no idea as to the level of experience/expertise your chef possesses, I can't help but wonder if he actually has some information about Creme Brulee baked on top of a cake, or if he saw one of these Mexican "impossible" cakes somewhere, and then extrapolated.

In particular, if he had caught a glimpse of these, and didn't realize they're "upside down" flan cakes, he might have thought it'd be nice with vanilla cake and creme brulee:

Individual flan cakes


.

Edited by Jaymes, 10 March 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[Kerry Beal]

Googling Leche Flan Cake will get you the white cake versions of what Jaymes has linked to. And now I want to make this!

Edited by Kerry Beal, 10 March 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[Karri]

I think the water bath is agood idea, if you make a very light genoise, pour the creme pat on the bottom, and cover it up to where the creme pat is in water, and then you put your genoise mix on top of this and bake high. You could try making it cold water, this would possibly result in only the part above water being cooked, since genoise generally doesn't need a long time to cook.

edit: and since the genoise mix is lighter than the creme patissier, it would not mix. So a marriage of all the brain storming here.

Edited by Karri, 10 March 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[AAQuesada]

If chef considers following his idea to the letter more important than the result then you're in a tough position. If you're baking the cake, pouring on a custard base and baking again, the cake is being overbaked. It's also going to leach moisture from the custard base changing the texture of both the cake and the resulting custard. If chef refuses to budge on this, maybe use Jaymes' idea of the custard cake, bake them in individual serving dishes and cover the top of each ramekin with a premade sugar disc before serving. The custard will be on the bottom but they'll be baked together since that seems to be the party trick he wants. I don't know the situation you're working in or I'd suggest diplomatically telling chef that people have to eat my dessert so it's more important to me that they enjoy eating it than be amazed because they were baked together.

Agreed, do it in a way that works. Present it to him, let him taste it, then tell him how you made it. If he really wants it done in a specific way request a recipe (polite way of saying put up or shut up). I'm guessing he really won't care, it doesn't sound like he has much knowledge of the pastry kitchen. If he does want to know why you didn't do it the way he suggested just be honest, give him the issues and the solution. Most Chefs are happy to be presented with a good product and not more problems!

Edited by AAQuesada, 10 March 2012 - 03:10 PM.