11 replies to this topic

[seabream]

I have a recipe (for Chinese char siu bau) that calls for roughly the following sequence of tasks:
1. Mix hot water, sugar and active dry yeast in a bowl. Let it rest for 30 minutes to 1 hour.
2. Add flour, egg, oil and knead for 15 minutes. Let it rest for 2-4 hours.
3. Shape buns. Let them rest for 1 hour.
4. Bake.

I have two questions about this method:

* I am wondering how this recipe can be modified to use instant yeast instead of active dry yeast. Typically I modify recipes by adding the (instant) yeast with the dry ingredients instead of adding it to the water. However, in this case this eliminates the first step and a whole hour of happy feeding for the yeast. I am wondering if the rest of the recipe needs to be adjusted if I skip the first step and mix all ingredients together.

* I don't understand why the first step requires half hour to a whole hour of waiting. Other recipes that call for active dry yeast simply instruct us to add the yeast to the water and then to the rest of the ingredients. I understand that if we're not quite sure if the yeast is still alive, we can wait a few minutes until it starts to bubble in the water. But why a whole hour?

Thank you in advance for any replies!

[Chris Hennes]

To be honest, I'd just go ahead with your normal method of replacement (it's the same technique I use). The 2-4 hour rest is what perplexes me... no amount of rise specified? If doubling the amount of rise time doesn't matter to the recipe, it's not a very finicky recipe.

[thirtyoneknots]

I've never seen anything calling for yeast to be proofed that long. If you desire more yeasty flavor and don't have a natural levain, make a small pre-ferment with a pinch of yeast dissolved in water and flour. I normally use a 1:1 by weight mix of flour and water (subtracting those quantities from the other ingredients, of course) but some breads use wetter pre-ferments to different effects. I'm sure someone here could help you with what type is most appropriate.

If you want to skip the pre-ferment you would just add the instant yeast directly to the dry ingredients. The trick to using instant yeast is that you have to add hotter water than you might otherwise for regular old active dry, like 120-130F. These rising times are likely to be shortened somewhat with instant yeast, make sure you keep an eye on it so it doesn't over-proof.

My microwave will pretty reliably take a cup of tap water to the correct temp in 30 sec, or 2 cups in 1 minute. I've never tested it with larger amounts.

[seabream]

Chris - The recipe does specify the amount of rise (I over-simplified my instructions) - it says the dough is ready when it has tripled in size. However, after 4 hours I estimate that my dough has maybe doubled, not tripled. The author explains that we should follow the shorter rising time in the summer, and the longer one in winter. Thanks for your advice - I am planning to try the usual yeast replacement next time then.

Andy - Good to know about the warmer water and shorter rising time for instant yeast. How can I tell if dough is over-proofed?

Also, I should mention that I am using a book written by a Chinese author in 1982, so I would imagine bread science has evolved quite a bit since then.

Thanks!

[thirtyoneknots]

I'm not the top expert by a long shot but I do bake bread frequently. I'm just offering the best I got, if anybody has better info please do tell.

Dough is generally considered properly proofed when you can gently press two fingers into it and the indentations will stay. If the dough has not yet risen enough, the density and gluten strength will typically cause the indentations to fill back in very quickly. Most recipes say dough is properly proofed when it has doubled in bulk. Over-proofed dough has expanded to the point of breaking or at least weakening the gluten bonds, and though I haven't done this in a long time (knock on wood) what I recall is that indenting the dough is likely to deflate it somewhat, since the air pockets are weak. Instead of benefiting from oven spring, over-proofed bread has a tendency to collapse.

Out of curiosity, is there any particular reason you are wanting to use instant yeast here? Nothing wrong with it, of course.

[seabream]

Thanks Andy - that was a very clear explanation.

I'd rather use instant yeast because I have a large package of saf instant yeast in the fridge. If I manage to use most of it in a year or two, that ends up being a lot cheaper than buying the individuals packets.

I've actually made this recipe twice already with individual packets of active dry yeast, for fear of changing the instructions and getting it wrong. But if I continue making it often (we love char siu bau) I'd much rather figure out a way to use the instant yeast I have in the fridge.

In general, I find instant yeast more convenient because I can mix it with the dry ingredients and add all the ingredients all in the same bowl.

[thirtyoneknots]

If you already have a reference point for how the recipe is supposed to work, then I'd say just go right ahead and try it with instant yeast, skip the extended yeast "proof" at the beginning and keep an eye on it to judge proper rise, since you already know what that looks like.

[seabream]

Thanks, Andy.
Per yours and Chris' suggestion, next time I will try skipping the first step and adding instant yeast to the dry ingredients. That makes this recipe more in line with other bread recipes I've seen.

I have a bit of a fascination for old cookbooks with unprecise instructions, no images, and weird methods... that makes cooking harder than it needs to be :)

[runwestierun]

I have noticed that many bao recipes start with an hour to let the yeast bloom. Sometimes the yeast is with a 1:1 mixture of water and flour. I don't know why, maybe it's just tradition.

I am quite happy with this recipe which uses instant yeast. It takes much less effort and time than the traditional recipe, which I used for many years.

Adapted from Asian Dumplins by Andrea Nguyen

Makes 16 medium bao.

1.5 teaspoons instant yeast
.75 cups warm water
2 Tablespoons canola oil
2 Tablespoons sugar
2 teaspoons baking powder
12.5 ounces (2.5c) AP flour

Mix the yeast and water in a small bowl and let sit for 1 minute, add oil and whisk. Set aside.

Whiz the dry ingredients together in a food processor, using the metal blade. Use 20 seconds to pour the liquid through the tube into the dry ingredients while processing. Process 45-60 seconds longer, until the dough comes together into a ball. If there are more than a few little straggly pieces, add a little water. Dough should feel medium-soft and tacky but not sticky.

Put dough in oiled bowl, cover with plastic wrap and let sit until doubled, about 45 minutes.

Voila! So much easier, and it uses instant yeast. Good luck. I also wanted to say that you can use instant yeast in any recipe that calls for dry active yeast. 1t instant=1.3 t dry active.

[seabream]

runwestierun,

That does seem like a simpler recipe. I really like Andrea Nguyen's recipes.

However, I don't understand why she says to mix the instant yeast and water. Usually, active dry yeast is added to water, but I thought the whole point of using instant yeast is to skip that step.

Still, the recipe is useful, and does seem a lot easier - thanks!

[thirtyoneknots]

runwestierun,

That does seem like a simpler recipe. I really like Andrea Nguyen's recipes.

However, I don't understand why she says to mix the instant yeast and water. Usually, active dry yeast is added to water, but I thought the whole point of using instant yeast is to skip that step.

Still, the recipe is useful, and does seem a lot easier - thanks!

It will work to bloom instant in water like active dry. Superfluous, but I have known of people who do it religiously. I don't think you'd want the water up around 130F for that.

[Blether]

I made bao in the autumn with Saf Instant, mixed into the dry ingredients. I retarded the dough in the fridge overnight and left to rise for 3 hours after forming. I got the light, fluffy results I aimed for.

My own experience with "standard" bread recipes with a 40-60 minute rise, knock down and the same again has been disappointing. It doesn't develop the bread flavour well. I typically enjoy plain white bread that I've given 5 hours or more rising at room temp before baking.