41 replies to this topic

[runwestierun]

OK I had an old Kitchen Aid mixer that I LOVED. It was an old professional series, I don't remember the wattage--maybe 600? Anyway the new husband took a metal saw to it to make it "better" (=broken) and then got me a new one after he saw what he had done.

The new one is an Artisan and it isn't even a shadow of my former mixer. It cannot knead the majority of doughs. I am embarrassed I own it.

I got an email today from Williams Sonoma about a new KA mixer that is 1.3 horsepower. Wouldn't that make it about 1000 watts, or is there something I am not understanding? Anyone know anything about this machine? It's exclusive to WS.

http://www.williams-...NoMerchRules-_-

It seems heavy duty but I was so burned by the last one...

[paulraphael]

It's nice to see a horsepower measurement instead of a wattage measurement; horsepower generally means actual output power while wattage means power consumption. Unfortunately, Kitchen Aid is lying. Just ridiculously so, and I hope someone takes them to task on it.

For reference, here's what a 3/4 (real) horsepower mixer looks like.

This particular KA mixer may in fact be a good mixer, even a great one. But for obvious reasons I wouldn't trust KA's marketing to tell me so. I'd wait until some people can put it to the test. You can always buy from W.S., knowing that their warranty is forever, but you pay a huge premium buying there. I'm more inclined to wait things out, let the thing get field tested, and buy a KA factory refurb.

The pro 600 is a plenty good mixer assuming you use it intelligently, and assuming you don't get a lemon. The artisans are good for cakes and light duty use but have a poor track record with breads.

[Country]

I got an email today from Williams Sonoma about a new KA mixer that is 1.3 horsepower. Wouldn't that make it about 1000 watts, or is there something I am not understanding?

You have it about right. 746 watts equals one horsepower. 1000 watts equals 1.34 horsepower.

[HowardLi]

Yep. Power ratings are pretty much useless, unless you want to know how much money you are paying when you're running the thing full load.

[budrichard]

I have a KA Pro Line KSM5, 325 watts, machine shop industrial grey finish, purchased about 20 years ago. Handles everything with no problem, a real tank. We also use it to grind meat frequently since the dog gets an all raw diet in part ground sirloin (lower fat).
I would look for a used one on Craigslist or maybe ebay or local. It's pretty easy to tell if it's OK, they either work or they don't.
Kitchenaid is NOT the same company as when owned by Hobart. Many of their products are now from off shore. I wouldn't be surprised if the WS KA mixer was assembled in the USA of foreign parts.
Even Hobart is sourcing off shore. they have a new lower cost slicer, but it's made in China if you ask, which I did before ordering. Not for me. Companies today are not interested in quality or longevity, they are all under the pressure of the 'Street' to provide maximum earnings without regard to product performance or customer satisfaction.-Dick

[lindag]

This is KA's brand new 7-quart, super powerful model. If you're in the market for a new mixer and you're a bread baker or make large recipes, this is the one to get.

[David A. Goldfarb]

A new Hobart 12 quart commercial countertop mixer has a 1/2hp motor. The 30 quart floor model has a 3/4hp motor.

http://www.hobartcor...od-prep/mixers/

Something tells me that the 7 qt. household mixer with a 1.3hp motor is more marketing than substance.

That said, I've been very happy with the refurbished KitchenAid Heavy Duty 5-qt mixer I've bought a couple of years ago to replace the lower powered 5-qt model I had previously. Aside from a larger motor that handles heavier doughs and large batches of meat grinding without complaining, it has slow start, so no "flour shower" when you turn on the mixer, and there are ten distinct speeds from 1-10, and the range of speeds seem wider than on the standard model.

[LoftyNotions]

I'd be very suspicious of horsepower ratings. Lots of manufacturers use a fudgeword like peak or developed somewhere in their claims.

Here is a good EXPLANATION.

Larry

[paulraphael]

I got an email today from Williams Sonoma about a new KA mixer that is 1.3 horsepower. Wouldn't that make it about 1000 watts, or is there something I am not understanding?

You have it about right. 746 watts equals one horsepower. 1000 watts equals 1.34 horsepower.

It still amounts to a lie. Wattage is can be used to measure power consumption or output power. Horsepower is ONLY used to measure output power. Until this ridiculous move by KA, I've never seen an appliance company try to fool people by measuring power consumption in horses.

KA and the other should do what the commercial manufacturers do, which is give the actual, sustained horsepower output. For a mixer like this, it would probably be about 1/10 hp. Which is plenty. A Hobart N50, which has a form factor closer to an atom bomb, is rated at 1/6 hp.

[HowardLi]

I got an email today from Williams Sonoma about a new KA mixer that is 1.3 horsepower. Wouldn't that make it about 1000 watts, or is there something I am not understanding?

You have it about right. 746 watts equals one horsepower. 1000 watts equals 1.34 horsepower.

It still amounts to a lie. Wattage is can be used to measure power consumption or output power. Horsepower is ONLY used to measure output power.

HP is a unit of power, no more, no less.

It'd be better for the manufacturers to rate their units in terms of how fast you can take bread dough to windowpane, but alas...

[David A. Goldfarb]

If you imagine a horse yoked to a wheel, geared to an axle, turning a paddle in a large basin, I bet that horse could knead a lot more than 7 quarts of dough before even noticing a load on the system.

[runwestierun]

Ok, so if the horsepower measurement is misleading because it's peak HP, is the same also true of watt ratings for KA mixers? Like when they say the Artisan is 325 watts, is that "peak watts"? Is there an immutable measurement by which to compare mixer power?

Edited by runwestierun, 13 August 2011 - 04:00 PM.

[Edward J]

It still amounts to a lie. Wattage is can be used to measure power consumption or output power. Horsepower is ONLY used to measure output power. Until this ridiculous move by KA, I've never seen an appliance company try to fool people by measuring power consumption in horses.

KA and the other should do what the commercial manufacturers do, which is give the actual, sustained horsepower output. For a mixer like this, it would probably be about 1/10 hp. Which is plenty. A Hobart N50, which has a form factor closer to an atom bomb, is rated at 1/6 hp.

Yes the N 50 is bomb proof, and my 30 qt is rated at 3/4 hp, which allows me to knead almost 20 kgs of bread dough.

But K.A. isn't the first to use this stupid hp rating, it is very common with power tools (routers, cheap-o table-top table saws, etc.) Bear in mind all of thse motors are motors with brushes, or universal motors, and the ones on Hobart machines and better quality appliances are induction motors, or brushless motors. Big difference in terms of power, torque, and, of course, noise.

[peterm2]

Something to perhaps bear in mind - last time I was at WS a few months back they said they no longer take returns unless it's got the receipt, and it has to be within so many days. So like a real return policy. Have they gone back to the original method? Without it, they seemed like just an overpriced kitchen store.

Edited by peterm2, 13 August 2011 - 06:20 PM.

[Country]

If you imagine a horse yoked to a wheel, geared to an axle, turning a paddle in a large basin, I bet that horse could knead a lot more than 7 quarts of dough before even noticing a load on the system.

746 watts = one horsepower = lifting 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute. Try doing that with any mixer...

Eta: any one horsepower mixer. Or anything that's rated as one horsepower on the consumer market.

Edited by Country, 13 August 2011 - 08:20 PM.

[budrichard]

Whether or not this mixer actually produces 1.3HP, the following Class Action got me money back on my John Deere riding mower and shows that mislabeling of Horse Power is endemic across industries-Dick
https://lawnmowercla...bid=149&mid=669

[Country]

Whether or not this mixer actually produces 1.3HP, the following Class Action got me money back on my John Deere riding mower and shows that mislabeling of Horse Power is endemic across industries-Dick
https://lawnmowerclass.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=ERFBh3K68f0%3d&tabid=149&mid=669

Dick, That's really interesting. Has the case been settled?

I noticed in your link the lawnmower and lawnmower engine makers have a "Power Labeling Task Force which provides Defendants the means, opportunity and cover to meet, discuss, conspire, conceal and further their fraudulent horsepower misrepresentations."

I wonder if home appliance makers in general, and mixer manufacturers in particular, have a similar group.

[lindag]

Yes,
W-S has indeed changed its lifetime return policy. It was getting screwed by people who'd deliberately damage items merely to exchange for new. (Among other things.) I'm amazed that they were able to keep on for as long as they have.
When I lived in Portland I used to shop there often as it was just such a cool place to wander through. The only item I ever returned was a bread machine which had walked itself off the counter (this on the day before Thanksgiving). They replaced it with a newer model than the one I had since mine had since been discontinued.
That earned my loyalty.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I wonder if home appliance makers in general, and mixer manufacturers in particular, have a similar group.

The problem does seem to be endemic to the motorized appliance industry in general. I remember converting between Amps, Watts, and horsepower when trying to buy a vacuum cleaner and the same when buying a blender and feeling like I really didn't know much more as a result of all the calculations.

To make things more confusing, Waring calls its consumer blenders "Professional" as opposed to its restaurant products, which are "Commercial." I ended up with a Commercial bar blender that probably has the same power motor as the consumer model, but it's NSF rated, which may just mean that it has a rubber covering on the switch so that food doesn't get in there and breed bacteria or short the thing out, and the coupling is easy for a user to replace, but it also does seem more powerful than consumer blenders I've used lately including one with a higher power rating, so maybe it does have a stronger motor or heavier parts, but it's hard to determine that from the technical specs. As I recall, Waring's website makes recommendations for its Commercial line in terms like "25 drinks per day," "100 drinks per day," etc., so I figured that if this is good enough for a bar serving 50 Margaritas a night, it would probably be sufficient for me.

[Country]

I wonder if home appliance makers in general, and mixer manufacturers in particular, have a similar group.

The problem does seem to be endemic to the motorized appliance industry in general. I remember converting between Amps, Watts, and horsepower when trying to buy a vacuum cleaner and the same when buying a blender and feeling like I really didn't know much more as a result of all the calculations.

Not that it will help much, but... Watts = amps x volts. And, as above, 746 watts = one horsepower. So a one horse mixer would draw about 6 amps @ 120 volts.

But, none of this means much as a straight electric resistance load could draw 746 watts and not do anything except convert that to heat. So that leaves us with how much of the electricity is converted to horsepower and how much is lost in resistive loads in the motor in a mixer.

Lets also take a look at motor sizes. I have a Viking "Professional" 5 quart mixer (which I like). It's rated at 800 watts, or a little over over one horsepower, and the motor is about 3" in diameter x 5" long and probably weighs less than 2 pounds. On the other hand, a typical Baldor one horsepower general purpose motor is about 7" diameter x 12" long and weighs 34 pounds.

To say the least, it's hard to believe the motor in my Viking puts out the same power as the Baldor. (I chose Baldor as an example because they're very good motors.)

[budrichard]

"Dick, That's really interesting. Has the case been settled? "

Case was settled for monetary penalty and that's why I got a check for about $25.
Have not heard anything from the DeBeers settlement which could net me a lot more money for the rock i bought my wife!!
Even Engineers have trouble figuring out what the Power Ratings quoted mean!
If you try to talk with anyone technical, its' a dead end.-Dick

[dcarch]

As I understand how things work:

1. A motor's power rating is based on the maxium load you put on it before it generated too much heat and burns the coils out. Or in the case of an induction motor, the motor stalls.

2. A motor draws very little power if it is just free-wheeling or has a very light load.

dcarch

[paulraphael]

As I understand how things work:

1. A motor's power rating is based on the maxium load you put on it before it generated too much heat and burns the coils out. Or in the case of an induction motor, the motor stalls.

It depends. Some motors are rated for peak power, others for continuous power. A motor rated for 1hp peak will overheat and burn out if it's asked to produce that power more than briefly.

Consumer appliances are typically rated with peak power numbers, but in the case of KA, even that's just deception; they're using peak power consumption, which does not correlate in any definite way with power output.

Hobart doesn't mess around. The 3/4 horsepower mixer is rated at 9.5 amps current draw at 120 volts. This translates to 1140 watts, which according to Kitchenaid style dishonesty, would equal 1.5 horsepower. Hobart's much lower horsepower rating is due to the inefficiencies inherent in any motor and mechanical device. I don't know if it's typical to see the output power that's 50% of input power, but based on what I've read about motors it seems reasonable.

And if it isn't obvious from the pictures and capacity ratings, that 3/4hp Hobart has room in its bowl for three or four Williams Sonoma Kitchenaid mixers, and could whip them into a nice fluffy mousse in about a minute.

Also to be clear: I'm not knocking the KA mixers. I have a pro 600 that has served me well for many years. I'm just annoyed by the company's deceptive marketing practices, and think they need to be spanked.

Edited by paulraphael, 19 August 2011 - 10:52 AM.

[Icanmakeit]

Hi have to give you my new KA mixer horror story.
I had the basic stand up model for over 15 years and it worked like a dream.
A couple of years ago, my husband bought me a new Professional 6000 and let me tell you,
It's a piece of junk.
The plastic 'worm gear' went out after a year.
I spent $300 having it fixed and was told by the repairman (an authorized KA repairman)that I should have kept my old one. When whirlpool bought KA about 5 years ago, they started making their KA appliances very cheaply, using lots of plastic and inferior parts that at one point were metal and now replaced with plastic.
A couple weeks ago, I was grinding meat - partially frozen,very pliable per the instructions. After about 10 minutes, I heard the crunch of the gears going out - again.
I went on youtube and I think I can fix it myself with some inexpensive all metal parts that can purchased online.
I will never again by anything KA.
I think my next standing mixer will be a Hobart, but I heard they are made by whirlpool too.

[Country]

I went on youtube and I think I can fix it myself with some inexpensive all metal parts that can purchased online.

Ican, you probably can fix it yourself if you're halfway handy. The main thing, after you get the new parts, is to make sure the new ones are the same as what needs to be replaced. And, when you take apart the mixer, be sure to line up all the parts in the order that they're taken out. Be very exact in this, as it could be a nightmare putting it back together if things get out of order. Like where does this washer/spacer go?

Hope it all works out for you.

[paulraphael]

Hi have to give you my new KA mixer horror story.
I had the basic stand up model for over 15 years and it worked like a dream.
A couple of years ago, my husband bought me a new Professional 6000 and let me tell you,
It's a piece of junk.
The plastic 'worm gear' went out after a year.
I spent $300 having it fixed and was told by the repairman (an authorized KA repairman)that I should have kept my old one. When whirlpool bought KA about 5 years ago, they started making their KA appliances very cheaply, using lots of plastic and inferior parts that at one point were metal and now replaced with plastic.
A couple weeks ago, I was grinding meat - partially frozen,very pliable per the instructions. After about 10 minutes, I heard the crunch of the gears going out - again.
I went on youtube and I think I can fix it myself with some inexpensive all metal parts that can purchased online.
I will never again by anything KA.
I think my next standing mixer will be a Hobart, but I heard they are made by whirlpool too.

Which model do you have? The pro 600?
That machine doesn't have a plastic worm gear.

Whirlpool didn't add any plastic drivetrain parts when they bought KA. The KA mixers always had a plastic "sacrificial gear," all the way back to the beginning of the company. The newer model bowl-lift mixers are the first mixers in KA history that have an all-metal drivetrain.

The plastic gear is designed to protect the motor and the larger gears from overload. The models that don't have it use a thermal overload protection circuit in its place. If someone is charging you $300 to replace the worm gear, they are ripping you off severely. KA's top of the line mixer can be bought as a factory refurb for much less than that.

Hobart mixers are not made by whirlpool. They are indeed heavier duty than any home mixer, and you will pay for for the difference.

[coz]

I'm looking for a stand mixer too. The KA 7qt models: the WS version is a lot cheaper than KA's website which is NSF certified. I assume the motor is the same. Does anyone know if anything is different?

I was looking at the Hobart N-50 but I can't seem to find many attachments for it like a meat grinder or pasta maker since it's a #10 size accessory port. Does anyone know if anything is available.

Do you think Hobart is worth 3X the price of the KA?

thanks

[tikidoc]

I don't know if it had a plastic gear or not, but my KA "Pro 600" died making a relatively small batch of wet dough, at the age of 2. $400+ down the drain. I will never buy another KA. I got rid of my old small one (big mistake) to upgrade, then it died so I got the 600, then it died.

I now have a Bosch Compact, which looks like a toy but doesn't even strain on doughs that used to make smoke come out of the KA, and an Electrolux Verona (formerly called the DLX). My only complaint about the Bosch is it's light weight, so you have to hold it to keep it from walking off the counter. The Verona is a tank. There is a bit of a learning curve to get used to the non-planetary motion but once you are used to it, it is awesome.

My advise? Get an old KA (pre-Whirlpool) or go with an Electrolux or a Bosch.

[coz]

That's sounds pretty bad. I think I want to get a stand mixer design because I want to grind meat too. I'll keep looking for info. The hobart seems bulletproof.

[tikidoc]

I have the meat grinder for the KA too, but it always struggled and the attachment sometimes fell off when in use.

The Bosch and the Electrolux both have a variety of attachments available, just like the KA. Both have meat grinders available. This is a link to the place where I got my mixer.

http://www.pleasanth..._dlx_mixer.aspx

http://www.pleasanth..._MUM6N10UC.aspx - this is the bigger Bosch, the Universal Plus. The Compact also has a bunch of attachments but if you want a heavy duty mixer, you would likely want the Universal.

I have the flaker attachment for the Electrolux and it works great. I'm keeping an eye out for other used attachments on eBay. Used attachments are not as easy to find as for the KA but they are out there.

The Hobart is a great machine too.