19 replies to this topic

[macrosan]

Jews surely rate food as more important within their culture than any other. And the tradition of Jewish food includes the finest ingredients possible and the highest standards of hygiene. As objective as I can be, I also think that many traditional Jewish recipes are fundamentally interesting and well-conceived. And yet ...

And yet the image of Jewish food is that it is fatty, stodgy, bland comfort food.

Allowing that there is a huge range of "traditional" (European) Jewish cuisines, do you believe that in a modern, and strong economic, environment such as the USA, there is the possibility for future development of Jewish haute cuisine ? Or (dare I ask) do you think it already exists ?

[eatingwitheddie]

Jews surely rate food as more important within their culture than any other. And the tradition of Jewish food includes the finest ingredients possible and the highest standards of hygiene. As objective as I can be, I also think that many traditional Jewish recipes are fundamentally interesting and well-conceived. And yet ...

And yet the image of Jewish food is that it is fatty, stodgy, bland comfort food.

Allowing that there is a huge range of "traditional" (European) Jewish cuisines, do you believe that in a modern, and strong economic, environment such as the USA, there is the possibility for future development of Jewish haute cuisine ? Or (dare I ask) do you think it already exists ?

Seems to me that Jewish food is made up of many different ethnic traditons which kind of simultaneously exist beside one another and sometimes intermingle with each other. There is the eastern European tradition of my grandparents which itself varies from one country to the next. My Hungarian grandmother cooked differently than my Polish one did. There is the Sephardic culinary tradition. There is a Middle Eastern cuisine. There is the contemporary Israeli food scene. I am no expert in this area, but it feels like there are enough different culinary traditions that each retains some of its own identity.

As I have written in some other posts I am someone who is often disdainful of labels. For my money, I would like to see the general quality of cooking rise to an extremely high level so that wherever you go you get really good tasting food. Will it be haute? My time in Israel leads me to believe that it will not be. I also think that is a good thing. Delicious is more than enough for me. Waiter, bring me a foie gras kebob please!

[Jason Perlow]

Hmm. Niman Ranch Schwarma. Felafel with ossetra caviar tahini.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Macro - Haute cuisine is just a level of cooking technique. Any ethnicity that has a defined cooking style could theoretically create a haute version of the cuisine. There is nothing to stop someone from reconstituting Jewish dishes in a haute cuisine setting. The cookbook author Joan Nathan who wrote the terrific book, Jewish Cooking in America, did a TV segment with Daniel Boulud who was making "latkes" for Hannukah. Except DB's latke was a single. large potato pancake (no flour, coarslely grated potatoes) which was the size of an entire serving platter. He then painted the latke with creme fraiche, put slices of smoked salmon over the top until it was covered, and then showered the whole thing with chopped chives. Voila, haute cuisine latkes. You could do this with any dish. You can turn gefilte fish into quenelles if that was your goal, and what is to stop someone from making sayteed Foie Gras with a fresh fruit and wine sauce. All things that are kosher.

[macrosan]

Yes I see that Steve, but what I had in mind was a cuisine that retained the essential character of the Jewish (East European) dishes that I grew up on, but produced them in a finer style. It's not the issue of kashrut that concerns me. I suppose I'm saying that I don't want to reconstitute, I want to refine.

Gefilte fish will always be gefilte fish, no matter what size you make the ball, and no matter what you cover it with. But could one use an atypical fish, or mince it differently, or add herbs, or maybe cook it differently, and yet still retain the essence of gefilte fish ? And please don't ask me what the "essence of gefilte fish" is, because I have no idea but I'll know it when I taste it

[Steve Plotnicki]

I suppose I'm saying that I don't want to reconstitute, I want to refine.

This is just semantics as I mean to say refine. And indeed the DB potato latke is a refinement of Jewish peasant food. I don't know if you ever had a quenelle but it is a pike dumpling that is eerily like gefilte fish from my perspective. And it is refined in exactly the way you describe where the fish is ground to the consistancy of a mousee instead of the course consistancy of gefilte fish. And instead of it being formed into small ovals, the form it into the shape of a log, cook it that way and then they are able to slice it into perfectly smooth rounds. Then they take a beurre blanc and spoon it over a few slices and voila. You could do the excact same thing to gefilte fish (which is pike, carp and whitefish) and grind it to athe consistancy of a mousse, andf cook it in a log. Voila, Jewish haute cuisine.

[Beachfan]

I understand Riedel is coming out with a Manischevitz glass. Look for it on Amazon just before Passover.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Do they make a special Elijahu addition?

[stefanyb]

I would say that certain cuisines' very essence is the peasant quality it has that derives from the poor circumstances of the founding ethnic group. Without the rustic quality it would be something else entirely. Making gefilte fish into quenelles is not a refinement; it is making a French dish that just happens to resemble a dish in another cuisine.

Peasant cuisines are just that, peasant cuisine, not haute cuisine. Also, rather than logs, aren't quenelles formed by using two spoons in the classical way turning the paste over and over onto each spoon until the football shape is achieved? Wasn’t gefilte fish originally stuffed into the whole fish, hence the name gefilte (stuffed) fish? Or would that be geschtupte fish ?

Would you ask if there could be an haute soul food?

I would be more interested if someone prepared the dishes I am the most familiar with with the most quality ingredients, excellent recipes, cooking skills and attention to detail. Perhaps some egulleter

Edited by stefanyb, 06 December 2002 - 04:59 PM.

[Stone]

Gefilte fish will always be gefilte fish, no matter what size you make the ball, and no matter what you cover it with. But could one use an atypical fish, or mince it differently, or add herbs, or maybe cook it differently, and yet still retain the essence of gefilte fish ? And please don't ask me what the "essence of gefilte fish" is, because I have no idea but I'll know it when I taste it 

I've had gefilte fish made from Chilean Sea Bass. The essence of gefilte fish? Smother it in mucus.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I would say that certain cuisines' very essence is the peasant quality it has that derives from the poor circumstances of the founding ethnic group. Without the rustic quality it would be something else entirely

But this is the whole point. The famous Paul Bocuse Truffle Soup is just a fancified version of Auvergnyat Peasant Soup that has truffles and a pastry crust. And I was just pointing out that a Jewish chef could notice the similarity between gefilte and quenelles because they are both based on ground fish. One that is ground course and one that is a mousse. Just one attachment on the Food Processor away from each other. All you need is the desire to make it fancier and luxurious.

Can gefilte fish be mousse of pike, whitefish, and carp, each one flavored differently and with some finely chopped vegetable added to each one to give it a discreet color? And then can you chill it in a terrine and serve it in a beautiful three color slice. And then you can make a carrot puree and an onion puree that are gently spiced and put a pool of each one on each side of the terrine? All it has to have is a connection to the way gefilte fish tastes and you would have haute Jewish cuisine.

[stefanyb]

Can gefilte fish be mousse of pike, whitefish, and carp, each one flavored differently and with some finely chopped vegetable added to each one to give it a discreet color? And then can you chill it in a terrine and serve it in a beautiful three color slice. And then you can make a carrot puree and an onion puree that are gently spiced and put a pool of each one on each side of the terrine? All it has to  have is a connection to the way gefilte fish tastes and you would have haute Jewish cuisine.

I'm not sure if we agree or disagree . I just think once you do to the gefilte fish what you described that, for me at least, it would no longer be Jewish cuisine. If you would like to name it Jewish haute cuisine, well maybe I could go along with that but why not just call it French? The connection to how the original version tastes wouldn't be enough to offset the texture, presentation and ultimately the gestalt of the dish as being something else entirely. But this is really just semantics, anyway.

[ranitidine]

I think the terms Jewish cuisine and haute cuisine are mutually exclusive. But take a look at Machlin's 'The Classic Cuisine of the Italian Jews" anyway. Its unusual to us descendants of Yiddish speakers, but its really not haute.

[Steve Plotnicki]

But Macro asked about Jewish haute cuisine, not Jewish pesant cuisine. How else would you do it? As for the difference between Jewish and French, what's the difference between Poule au Pot and Chicken in the Pot, or Boiled Beef and Pot au Feu and Cholent and Cassoulet? Not very much except the French versions are somewhat more refined then Jewish cuisine. And do you think wealthy Jews ate the same food as peasant Jews? What do you think the Rothschilds ate, chav?

[Stone]

Seems to me that Jewish food is made up of many different ethnic traditons which kind of simultaneously exist beside one another and sometimes intermingle with each other

To some extent, can't the same thing be said of Chinese, Italian, Indian or other cuisines? Or do they have a more common binding theme/thread that Jewish food doesn't have? Perhaps its a good analogy to the Jewish "nationality" itself, which unlike Chinese, Italian and Indian is not identified by geography.

[Steve Plotnicki]

To some extent, can't the same thing be said of Chinese, Italian, Indian or other cuisines?

And that's why those three cuisines do not have an equivelent of haute cuisine. If you care to read the few hundred thousand threads on the site about this issue, the development and proliferation of haute cuisine in France seems to be contemporaneous with the development of the modern restaurant. Other highly sophisticated cuisines including the ones you mentioned were basically practiced in homes and were regional in nature. And the restaurant cooking pretty much mimicked home cooking. It's the French, with that affluent middle class of theirs that formed in the late 19th century, and which flourished until WWII, that had both the time, inclination and sufficient extra income, and who also realized that exporting culture was extremely proiftable, who could and would support the development of haute cuisine.

[Stone]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but is French the only haute cuisine?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Modern Spanish cuisine.

[Stone]

Now I'm a little confused. "Modern" as in their haute cuisine developed within the last 25? 50? years? Is that because they had an affluent class develop during that time which developed haute cuisine? And the Italians, Indians and Chinese didn't? Could/can the affluent Americans develop Italian, Indian or Chinese haute cuisine?

If this has been discussed before, you have my permission to ignore.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Yes in the last 20 years. Can't tell you why it's happened but it has happened in the Basque region and on the Costa Brava which make up both of the major borders with France. I'm not knowledgable enough about Spain to tell you why this happened other then an obvious answer is that it is one way that freedom of artistic expression manifested itself after the death of Franco. Another logical reason is that food and wine are cheap ways of expressing newly found affluence and that also might be a result of Franco's passing. Maybe someone else can give netter imsight into why. Italy tried to create it's own version of HC but it has been in large part a failure and the restaurants and chefs don't make much of an impact on the international dining scene. After that it's sort of spotty with restaurants that might be deserving of the status dotted around the rest of Europe and the U.S.