36 replies to this topic

[paulraphael]

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... is there an online tutorial on the Japanese knife techniques you mentioned? Maybe I'm not getting the most out of my Japanese-style knives because I just don't know how to use them right.

There's a void of information on Japanese cutting techniques online, with the exception of instructional fish butchering videos (Japanese fish butchery is a high craft, and there as many variations on the techniques as there are fish). There's a guy named Itasan who has a lot of content on youtube. He's a real master:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfzGe...e=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udTHi...e=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVFMj...e=channel_page

I can point to a handful of informal videos on vegetable technique, but unfortunately not much instruction. i've had to seek out chefs with Japanese training and bug them for pointers.
Here are a bunch of homemade videos by my friend KC ... he's got serious skills.
Here's his chicken fabrication video (using a deba).

Edited by heidih, 21 January 2010 - 01:07 PM.
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[Blether]

... Japanese cutting techniques online...

paulraphael is right on all points. I did manage to find this page on techniques for specific fish, which I've found very useful.

[LindaK]

Whoah... I need to learn more about these Japanese knives and techniques. I've long been happy with the Trinity described here--my chef knives in different sizes, the paring, and boning knives. Chris, your knife is a thing of beauty but it looks BIG. Unless I'm whacking something with bones that requires no finesse, I need a knife that doesn't feel much bigger than my hand. Power is good, though, so I am intrigued by the testimonals here about Japanese knives. More info, everyone.

[paulraphael]

We're long overdue for a revolution in knife skills pedagogy. As far as I can tell, cooking schools are still teaching old techniques developed for fairly dull blades. I've heard that a lot of the best chefs these days have gotten the message, and have started hiring a cook or two with serious Japanese training to handle the most critical knife work (like fish and herbs).

I'd love it if we had a good systematic online resource ... like the egullet knife course, but with techniques for the new millenium.

Since the skills aren't widely known, the Japanese knives marketed in this country are mostly hybrid knives--higher performance than the European knives, but not as high performance as the knives people actually use in Japan (either for Eastern or Western cooking). Companies like Shun and Global know that if they sold truly thin, hard knives, people would destroy them mintutes after they took them home ... and blame the knife maker. So they make the reasonable choice, and make serious compromises in the name of durability and familiarity.

[Dakki]

Paul and Blether - Thanks for the links. Looking at Itasan18's videos right now.

Linda - the Japanese knives I've handled have generally much better than comparable Western knives due to (I started writing a longwinded, highly technical, boring and pointless monologue here - sorry, guys, I make a living making things out of steel so it's important and interesting to me) but I only use the Western-style ones, so if you're thinking about Japanese-style knives I can't help you at all.

I will say I think a good gyuto/chef's is the best of all worlds and Western-made santokus would probably be the worst, but that's just my opinion.

[paulraphael]

I watch the Itasan videos mostly for edu-tainment ... I don't butcher many fish, and don't even own a deba yet, so currently I fillet like a trout fisherman and not a sushi chef. I'd like to learn someday. I suspect it will take some hands-on instruction and a lot of practice, in addition to the youtube addiction.

Those vegetable videos show much more approachable techniques. With a little guidance and some practice you can learn a lot from them.

There must be some Japanese-trained chefs on eGullet ... I'd love to start a thread on this and get their contributions. I feel underqualified to teach this stuff beyond the most basic of the basics.

Edited by paulraphael, 20 January 2010 - 10:09 PM.

[Blether]

... a longwinded, highly technical, boring and pointless monologue...

Awww ! You left out the best bit ? We love that stuff around here - knock yourself out. Extra points for pointless. What can you add to the bible ?

[ojisan]

Some tutorials, not videos, on basic technique including knife skills, from the Tsuji school:

http://www.tsuji.ac....ques/index.html

[paulraphael]

Yeah, those are traditional techniques for single beveled knives and Japanese cooking. There are decent resources, including books, covering those in depth. What's scarce is tutorials on Japanese techniques adapted for cooking Western foods, particularly with knives like the gyuto. These are generally variations on techniques originally developed for the usuba and yanagi.

[Renn]

I'm not in any position to asses the content, but Japanese Kitchen Knives: Essential Techniques and Recipes, by Nozaki might be worth looking into.

Also, Sugai-san and the rest of the folks at Korin are pretty serious evangelists of Japanese knife handling. And I'd think that the first step in learning japanese knife technique would be how not to ruin that asymmetric edge.

Edited by Renn, 21 January 2010 - 04:11 PM.

[scubadoo97]

I've watched most of these videos a while back. Really had to change some techniques to preserve my edges on my J-knives. The sharpness allows you do slice or shave instead of chop-chop. Very light fluid movenent but very effective

[paulraphael]

Also, Sugai-san and the rest of the folks at Korin are pretty serious evangelists of Japanese knife handling. And I'd think that the first step in learning japanese knife technique would be how not to ruin that asymmetric edge.

Sugai teaches sharpening workshops, but I've never seen him teach anything technique related. I actually sent them an email once suggested they host skills classes ... they could get some hot shot NYC Japanese or fusion cook to give a demo. Never heard back though. I would think something like that would be valuable, and might even sell a bunch of knives.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Kikuichi did that at Brooklyn Kitchen not long ago. They brought in one of their quality control experts from Japan to demonstrate sharpening, straightening, and engraving (offering free engraving on any carbon steel knife purchased at the demo), and a sushi chef from Blue Ribbon Sushi to demonstrate some techniques. I wrote this up on our "Family of Food" blog a while ago with illustrations, focusing on the sharpening aspects--

http://familyoffood....sharpening.html

The guy from Blue Ribbon demonstrated katsuramuki (rotary peeling), and how is used in practice, and I picked up a neat propellerish sushi cut that I also use for things like cherry tomatoes.

[paulraphael]

That's cool. Wish I'd known about it. Was it all traditional single bevel technique, or did they show things with gyutos?
Kikuichi's distributor is up the hudson valley, so that makes sense.

[David A. Goldfarb]

He was doing mostly technique with single bevel knives as far as I saw, but there was sharpening happening simultaneously, so I didn't catch all of the sushi demo.

[Chris Amirault]

I have a basic question about Japanese knife technique that's illustrated here in this ginger julienne diagram. The technique involves cutting by drawing the edge toward your free hand while your fingertips press down on the object being cut, allowing for very thin slices of ginger that would likely be impossible without an extremely sharp and thin blade.

There are other instances when this technique of cutting toward your hand seems essential, such as katsuramuki, which makes thin daikon sheets. That is to say, I can't think of any other way to cut the daikon to produce this effect. But I'm not sure I understand the benefit of this technique -- if that's even the right word -- for something like the ginger, which I julienne using my nakiri atop a cutting board, on which I first slice thin slices of ginger, stack them like fallen dominoes, and so on.

It makes me think that there are certain advantages to this cutting toward the hand that I'm not seeing. Thoughts?

[scubadoo97]

Cutting toward the hand is usually done with a traditional single beveled Japanese knife. You notice often fish is cut to the left and meat to the right. I think this has to do with the type of knife used and how the're sharpened. Certainly for katsuramuki a traditinal single bevel usuba is used most often.

[paulraphael]

That technique is called sogi-giri (diagonal slicing). You cut toward your free hand so you can support the thin slice with your fingers and keep it from crumpling. Your fingers also give you great tactile feedback ... they tell you just where the edge of the blade is, and help you maintain consistent thickness. It's much more precise than trying to cut thin slices away from your free hand. It also works with the natural way your wrist turns. A key to Japanese cutting is keeping your whole arm relaxed, and allowing the blade and your hand and forearm to naturally fall into alignment. It helps with everything.

Seems scary at first, but once you get used to how much feedback you get from your free hand, you realize it's very unlikely that you'll cut yourself.

It's true that this technique was developed with single bevel blades, but it's also effective with a gyuto or slicing knife.

Edited by paulraphael, 25 January 2010 - 02:59 PM.

[Chris Amirault]

Thanks. That feedback totally makes sense -- and I can see how it would enable you to get much thinner original slices than you would otherwise get slicing down vertically.

Seems scary at first, but once you get used to how much feedback you get from your free hand, you realize it's very unlikely that you'll cut yourself.

Actually, watching the videos, it doesn't seem scary at all. I think that part of what's so critical to these techniques is the focus and precision. I mean, duh, obviously -- but my point is that the resulting techniques seem more, and not less, scary than watching someone rock 'n' roll their way through a pile of parsley, a gesture that demands you keep your fingers clear from harm.

[Hiroyuki]

Sogi giri is something like this:
Click here, scroll down, and click one of 64K, 300K, and 1M, and the movie will start to demonstrate sogi giri.

Another example of sogi giri:
http://www.movie3mai.net/dlRaYYUoJO8s.html
Chinese cabbage is cut in the sogi giri fashion here.

The ginger cut like that is called hari shoga (lit. needle ginger).

A slightly different technique is used here to make hari shoga.

[paulraphael]

Is there a difference between sogi giri and the slicing technique used on ginger (in step 2) of the link Chris posted?

[Hiroyuki]

Is there a difference between sogi giri and the slicing technique used on ginger (in step 2) of the link Chris posted?

In step 2, the blade is horizontal, while for sogi giri, you place the blade diagonal. The main purpose of sogi giri is to give the ingredient more surface area so that it soaks up flavor quickly.

[Hiroyuki]

This one demonstrates how to make sashimi.
Hira zukuri, suitable for hamachi (young yellowtail) and buri (adult yellowtail)
Sogi zukuri (same as sogi giri), suitable for firm white-fleshed fish like sea bream
Hoso zukuri, suitable for squid
Kaku zukuri, suitable for maguro, katsuo (bonito), and other soft flesh fish.

[Prawncrackers]

From my copy of Japanese Cooking by Shizuo Tsuji, I thought that inside draw cut towards the hand is called usu-zukuri. Or is that term specifically for fish? I mentioned in the other thread about slicing salmon that I use this technique for gravlax. The first time I did it it's SCARY! Where does the salmon flesh end and my own finger flesh begin? With big sides of salmon you need the long knife strokes so you really do need a steady hand. Though as paulraphael has already said, you get best tactile feedback from your fingertips and once you get it yo never feel like you're going to cut yourself ever.

[paulraphael]

The names for cutting techniques are confusing. I've had Japanese cooks refuse to tell me because they knew I'd never remember half of it.

What I did pry out of some people is that there are names for very basic cutting motions (like sogi-giri and tsuki-giri), which are not too plentiful, and then hundreds upon hundreds of names for knife cuts as applied to individual foods (like the needle ginger cut that Hiroyuki mentioned).

[paulraphael]

In step 2, the blade is horizontal, while for sogi giri, you place the blade diagonal. The main purpose of sogi giri is to give the ingredient more surface area so that it soaks up flavor quickly.

Are there any fundamental differences between these techniques besides the angle of the cut? I've done both, but always thought of them as variations on the same motion.

[Hiroyuki]

From my copy of Japanese Cooking by Shizuo Tsuji, I thought that inside draw cut towards the hand is called usu-zukuri. Or is that term specifically for fish? I mentioned in the other thread about slicing salmon that I use this technique for gravlax. The first time I did it it's SCARY! Where does the salmon flesh end and my own finger flesh begin? With big sides of salmon you need the long knife strokes so you really do need a steady hand. Though as paulraphael has already said, you get best tactile feedback from your fingertips and once you get it yo never feel like you're going to cut yourself ever.

Usu (= thin) zukuri is a type of sogi (= chipping) zukuri
Kazago usu zukuri. For usu zukuri, you have to make very thin slices. Fugu (blow fish), himame (flounder), and other very firm white-fleshed fish often cut this way.
demo
Suzuki usu zukuri demo

[Hiroyuki]

In step 2, the blade is horizontal, while for sogi giri, you place the blade diagonal. The main purpose of sogi giri is to give the ingredient more surface area so that it soaks up flavor quickly.

Are there any fundamental differences between these techniques besides the angle of the cut? I've done both, but always thought of them as variations on the same motion.

I don't even know how the technique in step 2 is called. The Japanese version of the webpage uses the word (verb), "hegu", which is similar to "sogu", from which "sogi" derives.
I can say that it's easy to imagine that a very thin slice is made by moving the blade backward and forward carefully.
As for sogi giri, you make a constant cut towards you (except the initial backward and forward movement), using the entire, long blade, right?

***
From other sources, I have learned that the authentic way to make ginger slivers (hari shoga) is to cut ginger with the katsuramuki technique first and then cut the resultant sheets thinly.

***
My 25th Anniversary Edition of Japanese Cooking by Tsuji mentions both usu-zukuri and sogi-zukuri on page 165.

[Hiroyuki]

This page of the e-Cooking School website discusses kazari giri (decorative cuts).

Click one of 64K, 300K, and 1M below the title of interest, and the movie will start.
Have fun!

[David A. Goldfarb]

What is this one called?--

http://www.ehealthyr...ecook/k0057.php

I learned to do it with one knife, first cutting the slot, then along the diagonal, rolling and again on the diagonal.