56 replies to this topic

[Richard Kilgore]

Wholemeal Crank posted yesterday and today about her experience with Chinese green teas in another topic. I have started this new topic focused on Chinese green teas, of which there are many, and copied her posts in this and the next post.

Here we can discuss the various Chinese green teas, tea merchant sources, brewing styles, and post tasting notes as well as questions.

This morning I'm playing with two teas that are not oolongs or pu-erhs. 

'First quality silver needle yin zhen' from chado tea and 'Emerald lily ancient tree organic green tea' from Rishi.

I have been smelling the leaves per the instructions in the Harney & Sons guide to Tea, and am surprised by the disconnect between the leaves and the liquor.

I am doing both in gaiwans, and don't have my scale handy yet because I just ordered it last night (getting this one from Amazon--ashtray pocket scale), I can't tell you precisely how much i used, but it was as close as I could visually approximate, with the lighter silver needle tea taking up about 2/3 of the volume of the gaiwan, and the green tea about 1/2 filling it.

Both infused the first time about 2 minutes with 173 degree water.  Even at this cool temperature, there was a quite noticeable bitterness about the green tea, although also some lovely floral/fruity flavors, that was nearly absent from the silver needle; and the silver needle was much fruitier and sweeter.  After the infusion, the silver needle leaves smelled a bit sharp and bitter, but there was very little of that coming through in a 2nd infusion; the green tea did carry the bitter smell even more into the tea on the 2nd infusion, however.

A 3rd & 4th infusion of the silver needle (with water that had been allowed to cool to about 160 degrees because I was lazy) were both still lovely, with hardly a hint of bitter, although the leaves now have a strong vegetal odor that is not coming out in the liquor.

The 3rd infusion of the green tea, with the same quite cool water, is even more bitter, really almost aggressively unpleasant in the aftertaste, although the first notes are pleasingly fruity, while the odor of the leaves seems similar to the silver needle, but just a lot stronger.

Interesting how the silver needle maintains that sweetness along with the vegetal or grassy notes, without getting bitter, but the green tea bitterness overrides the sweet fruity notes almost immediately.

[Richard Kilgore]

Today, trying some Bird Pick Royal Dragon's Well Green Tea, from Wing Hop Fung.  The leaves are lovely and uniform, with a grassy odor.



Infused a small quantity of leaves with 170 degree water for about 2 minutes, yielding a nice pale green liquor, some astringency but dilute enough to not dominate the flavors; pleasant but not setting off the kind of taste bud fandango that the oolongs and puerhs do, or that the silver needle tea did yesterday.  A second infusion, with water having cooled in the pot to 160 degrees, was similar.  But at the same time, there is a very nice sweet aftertaste that is still present some 10 minutes or more after drinking it.  I will keep working with it from time to time.

I understand the phenomenon of 'tasters' and 'supertasters' as defined by sensitivity to certain bitter chemicals, but never had a chance to take the test myself.  I dislike most bitter flavors in general--finding things like coffee and chicory utterly inedible--and wonder if this is at the root of my ambivalence towards most green teas.

[Wholemeal Crank]

after a little experimentation, I average about 20-22 tastebuds per 6mm diameter circle, which according to several web sites, puts me borderline high taster vs supertaster.

So there is a reason why I am so bitter-phobic, but able to tolerate more as I get older and things get less sensitive....

[Richard Kilgore]

That's interesting, WmC. You mention astringency and bitterness. While they are different characteristics, you may be able to attenuate both by cutting back the brewing time as well as dropping the temp to 160 - 165 as you have been doing. This may weaken the taste so much it is not worthwhile, but you could try brewing for one minute and then in 15 second increments. It would be interesting to see what happens.

Is the astringency (drying) as bothersome as bitterness?

[Wholemeal Crank]

Bitterness is definitely more bothersome than astringency.

And for the dragon well, I did pour out a sip of the first infusion after 1 minute, letting the rest of it go to 2 minutes, and found little difference between the two.

What was quite surprising to me was the degree of bitterness in the 2nd infusion with cooler water; I would have thought this would minimize it quite a bit, but it really didn't make much difference.

Next time I'll start with cooler water.

Edited by Wholemeal Crank, 23 August 2009 - 02:53 PM.

[Richard Kilgore]

May not make any difference in this case, but pouring a "sip" of an infusion may give you a misleading taste, since tea liquor has different densities in the pot before pouring the whole infusion into a fair cup or cup.

[Wholemeal Crank]

I'm swirling the gaiwan or pot a bit to mix before pouring out the sip, so it's not as layered as it might be otherwise.

[Richard Kilgore]

I'm swirling the gaiwan or pot a bit to mix before pouring out the sip, so it's not as layered as it might be otherwise.

That may work with a low leaf to water ratio, but my best guess for this to work with your bitter sensitivity is to up the ratio - a lot - as well as starting at a minute infusion at a temp of 160 - 165 F and then adjusting. With a near gong fu ratio, the leaves will interfere with the tea liquor mixing thoroughly by swirling. I may try this myself, since I usually just throw Dragon's Well (Long Jing) Green Tea in a glass or cup. That said, Long Jing is not likely to set off a fandango; it's a subtler tea, but a favorite of mine...among many favorites.

I guess you could try pouring all of the infusion out into a fair cup or any cup large enough to hold all of the infusion while mixing it thoroughly...and then pouring a sip into another cup...and then pouring the infusion back into the pot to continue infusing. But I think the above way will tell you more.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Why would upping the leaf to water ratio not also up the bitterness?

[Richard Kilgore]

What I was shooting for was upping the flavor by increasing the ratio, while damping the bitterness by cooler temp and shorter time. Don't know if it will work for you; only trying it will tell.

[Richard Kilgore]

WmC, I just looked at your Royal Dragon Well on the birdpick.com site, which reminded me that there is a possibility the tea may be the problem. Although it is the highest grade they carry, it is still a fairly low-priced Long Jing, when you count the tea tin they are throwing in. You may want to find a higher grade Dragon Well if you want to know for sure.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Good point. It was suspiciously inexpensive.

They do have more expensive green teas, but it was very crowded yesterday and I got tired of waiting for someone to help me with the bulk teas.

But I think I get where you're going with the more tea/less time idea.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Went back later on a Saturday afternoon, and asked to taste the best dragon well tea, and which grade was the closest to the one in the tin that I'd bought. The first one I'd bought was about $10/oz in bulk, and the one I tasted was $15/oz in bulk. It was notably much nuttier, tasting strongly of vegetables like a sweet young asparagus, and fairly astringent although not strongly bitter, and that was probably in part because it was brewed with quite hot water (they use one urn of hot water for all the sample teas). I bought a small quantity and will play with it more at home.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Precious Xihu Dragon's Well Green Tea this morning from Wing Hop Fung, their best grade of dragon well tea.

2 grams of tea, 2 oz water starting out at 165 degrees, and steeping 1 minute in gaiwan: delicate sweet vegetal stuff, some astringency, barely any bitterness.

Reinfused now about 5 times with the same water from the teapot, brewing a little longer each time as the water cools, now down to about 140 degrees. It still has nice body and sweetness even at this many infusions.

It is very pricey, but even at $15/oz, that's still only $1 for the 2 grams I am enjoying this morning. I will keep a little on hand all the time.

[Richard Kilgore]

Dragon Well is one of my favorites, WmC. Sometimes I brew it in a gaiwan and sometimes drink it grandpa style.

You are fortunate to have found a high quality one, but even some of the lesser ones make more than decent green tea. At $15 per ounce that makes your morning Dragon Well less than a cup of coffee at McDonalds...and a LOT less than a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Any other Dragon Well drinkers out there with brewing or sourcing suggestions?

[John Rosevear]

I know very little about fine teas, but a friend recently brought me a lovely tea from Beijing that she described as "Dragon Pearl Jasmine with Rose". It was lovely -- green tea pearls with bits of rose petal visible, and a wonderful nose and flavor. I'm drinking the last of it now.

Here's a photo of the label. What is (was) this and where can I get more? (EDIT: Or something similar?)

Edited by John Rosevear, 07 October 2009 - 07:18 AM.

[LuckyGirl]

Any other Dragon Well drinkers out there with brewing or sourcing suggestions?

I am new to the world of tea. I stopped drinking daily espresso and cappuccinos in early June after a bout of a horrible flu bug. I was seriously sick for 2 weeks and during that time I had no coffee. As I started getting better the third week I realized that I felt much better without the coffee; more alert in the morning and less anxious during the day. I decided not to go back to coffee and delve into the world of teas more than I had in the past.

Before I started drinking tea regularly I always found dragonwells to consistently be my favorite green teas. I liked them for their nuttiness and lack of green/vegetal taste. The more I have been trying different teas I still go back to dragonwells as my regular green drinkers.

I ordered many different sample teas from Ten Ren last week. Right now I am drinking their super-fine dragonwell. It is a little less robust than what I usually like but that may be beacuase I have sampled several oolongs over the past few days so perhaps that has skewed my perception.

The only time I have found dragonwell's to be bitter is when I have either used too hot of water or left them to brew too long.

[Richard Kilgore]

Luckygirl, you may also want to check out jingteashop.com for dragonwell. While I have not had theirs, it's on my list to try, and I have found their Oolong and red teas to be exceptionally good. Even their lower priced ones.

[Wholemeal Crank]

After being surprise in rereading in the Harney & Sons Guide to Tea that "The sweetness [of Japanese green teas] is extremely faint compared with the honeyed quality of many Chinese green teas," I decided to try two chinese green teas this morning prepared similarly to the Sencha and gyokuro that I have found to be so amazingly sweet. And this is my first crack at the Yunnan Mao Feng Green Tea I received in yesterday's order from Norbutea.

The other tea is "Precious Xihu Dragon's Well" from Wing Hop Fung. I tried to find this one on their birdpick.com site but can't find anything that exactly matches the abbreviated label on the bag from the store. This is the closest, but at $71/4 oz it's even more expensive.

So....about 1 gram each of these two teas, in matching porcelain gaiwans, just over 1 oz of water about 160 degrees and infusions of 30", 10", 30", 30".

The results are very nice, as good as I've gotten yet from the Dragon Well, but still much less sweet than the senchas or gyokuro. There is a stronger vegetal astringency with the pleasant nuttiness I expect in the Dragon Well. I think it would be better with double the tea to water ratio, but wouldn't expect the silky texture of the liquor from the japanese teas even with that change.

The Yunnan Mao Feng is a much wilder looking tea than the very neat flat uniform dragon well--thin, twisty, some paler than others--and the flavor of the tea is also 'wilder'--a bit smoky, with a resinous edge that may be 'camphor', very like a green version of the 2007 white bud sheng puerh crossed with the wild white camellia sample I got in a trade from Richard. It's also sweet, but less so than the Dragon Well, and also would probably benefit from a higher leaf-to-water ratio.

Here they are after brewing:



Now wondering: is there another Chinese green tea that is particularly prized for sweetness? Or is there more sweetness that I should be able to coax from these? The closest I think I've encountered to what I would think of as "honeyed sweetness" is from the new style very lightly oxidized oolongs.

[Richard Kilgore]

Very interesting comparison, WmC. It's a difficult one since Japanese and Chinese green teas are so different and they are typically brewed in different temperature ranges. So in addition to increasing the leaf:water ratio, you might try brewing the Chinese greens at 175 F and see what happens.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Today I brewed the Yunnan Mao Feng at about 175 degrees, and it is sweeter--still not a honeyed sweetness. I am particularly loving something camphorous that adds what I think of as a 'wild' note--it's quite present in the wild white camellia leaves from norbu, and also in the white bud sheng puerh. But today I realized it is a more general tea note that was also present in the black tea I made last night, just here the flavor contex is different.

I like this one just as much as the senchas and gyokuros, each is a splendid but entirely different type of tea, and quite a bit better than the dragonwell that is 10 times the price.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Today brewing Huo Shan Huang Ya, yellow tea from jingteashop.com. It's a twisted slender green leaf making a delicate sweet yellow liquor that reminds me of nothing so much as the new style green oolongs and pouchong, but less intense. Brewed 1.5 grams in a 100mL gaiwan with 170 degree water--starting at 30 seconds, increasing to 45 seconds, last infusion 2 minutes. A final infusion at 5 minutes was probably too much to ask, but still had a nice delicate flavor.

[Wholemeal Crank]

rereading in the Harney & Sons Guide to Tea that "The sweetness [of Japanese green teas] is extremely faint compared with the honeyed quality of many Chinese green teas,"

Another new tea today from jingteashop.com: Bi Luo Chun. I used 1 gram in an 80mL gaiwan, water about 175 degrees, and four infusions. The liquor was pale yellow-green, and finally, honey-sweet--quite similar to the gyokuro and sencha I was drinking recently, when they were at their freshest.

I bought a sample of this tea because it looked wild and curly like the Yunnan Mao Feng I've been enjoying so much, and not like the manicured dragon well that is so tricky for me to get right. And it is much more like the Mao Feng than the dragon well, but where the Mao Feng has a certain warmth and roundness of flavor--that hay-like quality that I enjoy so much in it and in the new-style oolongs, this Li Buo Chun is more vegetal when it's not sweet.

I foresee many happy cups of this in my future--or rather, something like this, because this one is sold out.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Another day, another several infusions of Dragon Well--the 'Royal' grade from Wing Hop Fung--and all have come out very nicely. This time I remembered to measure, and I am using about 2 grams of tea with 75-80mL water at 160-170 degrees, brewing in a gaiwan at 30", 10", and 30". Sweet, vegetal, moderate astringency, almost no bitterness.

I bought more of it this weekend when I went to Wing Hop Fung.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Tried a sample of Imperial Shi Feng Long Jing from Jing Tea today. I found it harder to get to that sweet spot I was hitting with the Royal Dragons Well from wing hop fung of late--it was nuttier and more astringent, but admittedly I was not very consistent with timing or temperature.

After that, I brewed up a gaiwan of Tian Mu Qing Ding T-65 from Chado tea, about which they say "The finest green tea from the top of Mt. Tianmu. This tea is mainly from the cloud and mist zone. Relaxing, pleasant and sweet." But in my hands this tea is smoky, earthy, not at all vegetal or sweet. The leaves are spindly and brown more than green, strongly resembling the sample photo on the web site, so it doesn't look like it was taken from the wrong bin. It's quite nice, but just doesn't bring 'green tea' to mind when I drink it.

[Wholemeal Crank]

A thought on the Imperial Shi Feng Long Jing, which is a very high grade Dragon Well type of tea (about $20/oz), and the two Dragons Well teas I got from Wing Hop Fung (one about $15/oz and another $10/oz): I think I liked the 'Royal' Dragon Well better than either of the two higher grade teas, because I was getting a sweeter and less astringent brew from it.

When just considering the two from WHF I was unsure whether the difference was increasing skill in the brewing, but I've been working with the Imperial Long Jing as closely as possible to the same conditions I used with the Royal DW, and still see less sweetness and more astringency in the Imperial than I recall finding in the Royal.

Tonight's insight: perhaps the stronger astringent vegetal flavors of the other two are the prized 'nuttiness', precisely what makes them worth more to the traditional drinker of chinese green teas.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Started the evening with a sample of Rishi's Moonlight white tea, from a tea swap with LuckyGirl. It's an interesting tea, with a fruity and tart note that I associate with oolongs or black teas, in addition to the delicate flavors typical of white tea. Quite surprising stuff.

It reminds me a lot of the spring Ya Bao from Norbu.

Edited by Wholemeal Crank, 20 February 2010 - 08:07 PM.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Setup:2 grams of tea in 75 mL gaiwan, water 160 degrees, 1st infusion 1 minute; 2nd infusion 165 degrees 1 minutes; 3rd infusion 170 degrees 2 minutes

Silver Needle Yellow Tea from Hunan (Wing Hop Fung)
Dry Leaves: green, needle-like; grassy, lemony, sweet
Liquor, 1st infusion: grassy, lemony, astringent
Liquor, 2nd infusion: grassy, astringent, bitter developing
Liquor, 3rd infusion: grassy, astringent, bitter, but not strong
Wet Leaves: single or paired narrow small leaves, grayer than the very fresh yellow-green of the last tea, but otherwise similar; overcooked vegetable odor

Yin Zhen Silver Needle (Chado)
Dry Leaves: pale, downy, narrow; light, floral, sweet
Liquor, 1st infusion: sweet, floral, delicate
Liquor, 2nd infusion: sweet, floral, delicate, touch of astringency
Liquor, 3rd infusion: camphor, floral, astringency increasing, weaker
Wet Leaves: thin narrow sage green leaves; still sweet, vegetal aroma

Organic Bai Mu Dan aka Peony White Tea (Wing Hop Fung)
Dry Leaves: some downy needles, a bit twiggy, some open very thin green leaves; sweet, floral, grassy
Liquor, 1st infusion: very vegetal and also peachy, delicate, camphor, sweet
Liquor, 2nd infusion: peachy, sweet, floral, less vegetal
Liquor, 3rd infusion: peachy, floral
Wet Leaves: mixed leaf pieces and stems; peachy, camphor aroma

Precious Rare White Tea (Wing Hop Fung)
Dry Leaves: neat, even, deep bright green needle-like leaves, not downy; delicate grassy odor
Liquor, 1st infusion: sweet, vegetal, nutty, strong resemblance to long jing
Liquor, 2nd infusion: sweet, vegetal, like a very delicate long jingo
Liquor, 3rd infusion: nutty, vegetal, very very nice
Wet Leaves: delicate single or paired tiny leaves, intact; sweet cooked pea aroma

upper left is Silver Needle Yellow Tea from Hunan (Wing Hop Fung); upper right is Yin Zhen Silver Needle (Chado); lower left Organic Bai Mu Dan aka Peony White Tea (Wing Hop Fung); lower right is Precious Rare White Tea (Wing Hop Fung)

Dry leaves


Infused liquor


Wet leaves


That Rishi Moonlight white tea is clearly a Bai Mu Dan.

Edited by Wholemeal Crank, 28 February 2010 - 01:09 PM.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Tonight, at work, holding a little gong fu tasting session, comparing the Jing Tea Imperial Shi Feng Long Jing ($64.65/100g) to Wing Hop Fung's Premium Organic Dragonwell (~$33/100g). 1.3g leaf to about 60mL water in small gaiwans, water 160-170 degrees, short infusions of 30" to start, and there is a noticeable different right off the bat that continues through several infusions: the Jing has a much stronger vegetal flavor, with rich asparagus body; the WHF is more delicate, sweeter, and less vegetal, although the two liquors have a similar creamy mouthfeel. The leaves look virtually identical, except the WHF is a little brighter green, and the leaves after brewing have a little more delicate aroma too.

Very interesting comparison, head-to-head. I seem to like best whichever one I just finished drinking: they're quite different but both lovely teas. Next I need to compare these two to the "Precious Rare White Tea" from WHF.

[nakji]

I just popped into my local tea shop (San Wan Chang)after a long absence to re-up on tie guan yin leaves for work. (I usually start with a few leaves in the cup in the morning and brew grand-pa style all day.)

Well, while I was in there, the sales assistant told me they'd just gotten in some 2010 long jing tea from Hangzhou (not so far from here). Going at the rate of 1300 RMB/kg I had to try some! She opened up the canister for me to have a whiff and I was sold. The leaves themselves are bright green and have a lovely grassy smell. I have brewed one small cup inexpertly - I was too eager to get out my thermometer and gaiwan - and I'm loving the astringency. I've just finished a late dim sum meal, and this tea is just the ticket for getting out the residual fattiness from the meal.

Now - how do I want to brew this properly?