9 replies to this topic

[Doodad]

What is the history and tradition (if any) of rice in French cooking? My wife and I disagreed over beef bourginon I cooked for dinner. She claims it always comes with rice. I pointed out that rice cultivation is not exactly huge in France and that we had bread.

Not sure here, but the few French cookbooks I have do not swoon over rice. Veau de blanquette is the only real recipe I have that includes the grain.

[thomasdavis81]

What is the history and tradition (if any) of rice in French cooking?  My wife and I disagreed  over beef bourginon I cooked for dinner.  She claims it always comes with rice.  I pointed out that rice cultivation is not exactly huge in France and that we had bread.

Not sure here, but the few French cookbooks I have do not swoon over rice.  Veau de blanquette is the only real recipe I have that includes the grain.

I just looked up rice in my Larousse Gastronomique what is said about rice is very unflattering, He basically blames the overcooking of rice, "reducing the rice to mash contributed to the disfavour in which this foodstuff was held in France. At the time of the siege of Paris in 1870 to 1871 when there was a shortage of bread, enormous quantities of rice remained unused."

[Ptipois]

Rice goes with traditional recipes like blanquette de veau (not "veau de blanquette"), and various dishes involving chicken in a sauce (poule au riz, poulet au blanc, poulet basquaise, poulet au curry — French-style curried chicken, much older than it sounds), or fish or shellfish in a tomato or cream-based sauce like armoricaine or dieppoise.

Apart from that, the traditional uses of rice are not many in the Northern and Western half of France, and quite numerous in the Southeastern part (Provence and Nice), though rice has been known for centuries all over the country. Some relatively ancient use of rice is recorded in Brittany, probably because of the abundance of seafood products and the importance of the sea trade that also brought spices, teas and coffees.

Rice with bœuf bourguignon = never. The usual side dish is potatoes, preferrably boiled or steamed. In some regions beef stews will go with pasta-style dishes like gnocchi, polenta or fidés (pasta cooked by the absorption method). In France there is no history of rice with beef stew that I can think of.

Edited by Ptipois, 29 June 2008 - 08:06 PM.

[Adam Balic]

Rice goes with traditional recipes like blanquette de veau (not "veau de blanquette"), and various dishes involving chicken in a sauce (poule au riz, poulet au blanc, poulet basquaise, poulet au curry — French-style curried chicken, much older than it sounds), or fish or shellfish in a tomato or cream-based sauce like armoricaine or dieppoise.

Apart from that, the traditional uses of rice are not many in the Northern and Western half of France, and quite numerous in the Southeastern part (Provence and Nice), though rice has been known for centuries all over the country. Some relatively ancient use of rice is recorded in Brittany, probably because of the abundance of seafood products and the importance of the sea trade that also brought spices, teas and coffees.

Rice with bœuf bourguignon = never. The usual side dish is potatoes, preferrably boiled or steamed. In some regions beef stews will go with pasta-style dishes like gnocchi, polenta or fidés (pasta cooked by the absorption method). In France there is no history of rice with beef stew that I can think of.

Large scale rice growing in the Camargue seems quite recent (mid-20th century?). Any new-tradional recipes for rice and beef developing?

[Ptipois]

Large scale rice growing in the Camargue seems quite recent (mid-20th century?). Any new-tradional recipes for rice and beef developing?

Yes, Camargue rice is quite recent, and not very good quality at that. However the consumption of imported rice in France since the 70s has increased dramatically, but no new-traditional recipes I can think of (actually some of the "traditional" uses I mentioned above could be all the new-traditional there is to describe, i.e. I'm not sure rice has been served with armoricaines for a long time). All sorts of rices are now available in supermarkets.

Yesterday in a TGV (where I never buy anything to eat unless I'm going to collapse) I was served a cutesy and quite offending microwaved black plastic cocotte which contained some sort of beef stew, described as "Camargue-style", a term which obviously alluded to the mushy rice that filled the vessel, thinly covered with a few slices of beef and unpeeled green and red peppers. The whole thing, including the use of rice with a beef stew, had definitely a 2000's feeling.

Edited by Ptipois, 30 June 2008 - 12:23 AM.

[yasuofenix]

Growing up I thought beef bourginon was mostly eaten with potatoes, meat and potatoes!
But when I was in culinary school they seemed to make a big deal of serving it with pasta. Maybe they were just teaching us how to make pasta... I don't know.
It does taste very delicious with some fresh egg pasta by the way.

[Adam Balic]

Some daubes from further south are served with pasta, so beef stew with wine + pasta isn't that crazy.

I'm not sure that beef bourguignonne itself is such an ancient dish either. Alfred Contour's Le Cuisinier Bourguignon (1931) doesn't seem to have a recipe for it, which is a bit odd if it is an iconic regional dish? Ptipois?

Both Escoffier and Saint-Ange give recipes for the dish, so maybe it didn't start off as a regional dish at all?

I would be surprised if a wine + beef stew didn't exist in Burgundy for a very long time, but the lack of a specifically named dish until relatively recently is a bit odd?

Edited by Adam Balic, 08 July 2008 - 02:53 PM.

[Ptipois]

I haven't studied the subject of bœuf bourguignon very carefully, I must say. I only know that it does have regional roots (like other rural-style wine-simmered dishes like daube, gardiane or coq au vin), that its style was probably defined in the early 19th century, that it was very big in France in the 70s and early 80s, that it has sort of fallen from grace since then (as has most regional cooking except Southwestern and Provençal), and that it still seems to be popular in the US, at least by name.

Fresh pasta as a side dish for bourguignon is a rather recent fashion (early 1980s) but there are traditional occurrences of gnocchi served with daube de bœuf in niçoise cooking, which is an example of pasta served as a side dish in an Italian context

Pasta is OK to mop up the sauce but apart from the gnocchi with daube (which is a heavenly combination, especially with a true daube niçoise flavored with dried cèpes) it does not really go well with that kind of stew. I still think the only thing to serve with a bœuf bourguignon is any potato-based side dish.

[Adam Balic]

I don't think that there is an issue with a beef+wine stew existing in Burgundy for a long time, but I still not so sure about beef bourguignonne which is rather a specific dish. If anything the name is specific to the garnish combination then the method for the dish etc. Have yet to see a 19th century reference.

Daube with gnocchi sounds great. I have the niçoise cookbook by the disgraced former mayor which is rather good.

[Ptipois]

Yes, indeed. I have the former mayor's book and it is probably the sturdiest literary reference on niçoise cooking. On that subject, Médecin could be trusted.