21 replies to this topic

[johnder]

I got to thinking in reference to people saying they are having a hard time getting a seat at the smaller cocktail bars in New York (D&C, PDT, Little Branch) and how there seems to be a shortage of seats in regards to demand.

Right now the "cocktail" centric bars we have in New York (forgive me if I miss any, this is off the top of my head)

Pegu Club
Flatiron
Employees Only
Brandy Libary
PDT
Little Branch
Milk and Honey
Death and Company
SB3
Angel's Share
B Flat
Bemelmans (?)

Then we have restaurants that have (or tried to have) a serious cocktail program)

Gin Lane (closed)
Irving Mill
WD-50
Gramercy Tavern
Gordon Ramsay
The Modern
Tailor

I would say in regards to the bars, with the exception of Pegu Club - most of these places can handle 40-55 people max. Although I never counted the seats at Pegu I would think that on a Saturday or Sunday they can pack that place with at least 125 people (including standing at the bar)

Given my estimate there are roughly 450-500 seats or so available at the bars for people to occupy at any given time -- how much more do you think the NY cocktail market could bear before being saturated?

I know in regards to PDT we turn away a lot of people on Thursday - Saturday. I would say if we doubled the space we would still be turning people away and I am sure it is the case for others as well.

The big questions I have is:

Is the competition for the available seats a function of the renewed interest in cocktails? The "in" or "kitsch" factor of the place in question? Both? Something else?

edited to add: Tailor

Edited by johnder, 30 December 2007 - 03:13 PM.

[docsconz]

One restaurant that clearly needs to be on your list is Tailor.

There is certainly a renewed interest in cocktails and cocktail creativity. It has also spread out around the country with recognition and homage being paid to some of the contemporary mixologists. Last night I had a Pegu Club cocktail at a restaurant in Saratoga Springs.

[Sneakeater]

After posting about this in the PDT thread, I started thinking about it.

First, I wondered why I can almost always get into Pegu, and almost never get into PDT or D&C. And I recalled the rather obvious fact that Pegu is seemingly something like three times as large as those other places.

So I reached to conclusion that if you want to have a highly-hyped lounge, and not turn large numbers of people away, you have to be the size of Pegu.

Now, you might want to turn large numbers of customers away -- that kind of exclusivity is often prized by clubs. But if you don't, you have to be fairly large.*

Second, I realized that even when Pegu was about the only game in town, you could always get in. So the people who fill PDT and D&C night after night aren't the same pool of people who were going to Pegu before those places opened. This could mean several different things.

First, it could mean that the more of these places that open, and the more publicity they receive, the more demand is generated for "cocktailian" cocktails.

But second, it could mean that the appeal of D&C and PDT isn't solely based on the cocktails. Both those places seem to me to be designed to appeal to a younger crowd than Pegu, and both feature more "atmospherics" than Pegu. And, of course, their small size creates its own appeal. (I don't think Angel's Share would have been nearly so popular in its hayday if it were easy to get into.)

Since I don't believe that masses of people are motivated by a desire for high-quality cocktails, my own conclusion would be that PDT and D&C are popular primarily for reasons other than the quality of the cocktails. But John, you're really better positioned than anyone to know that. What do you think?

PS -- How come we don't talk about the bar at Tailor in this context? I'm not blaming anyone: I don't, either. Is it because it's attached to a full-service restaurant? I don't really think of it as being in the mainstream of "cocktailian" lounges -- but I can't think of a reason why I shouldn't.

ETA: I hadn't seen docsconz's cross-posted post when I wrote that PS.

____________________________________________________________
* This isn't unique to bars, obviously. I don't think that Momofuku Noodle Bar was designed to turn people away. I think it just worked out that way -- to the delight of its owners. Even the opening of Ssam Bar didn't take the pressure off Noodle Bar. Only now, with Noodle Bar's new expanded premises, is there some relief.

Edited by Sneakeater, 30 December 2007 - 04:24 PM.

[oakapple]

I don't think the market is anywhere near saturated. As long as these places keep opening and succeeding, there will be more of them. It's the same reason that we keep seeing new steakhouses: they almost never fail. I also sense that these places are comparatively easy to open. I mean that only in relative terms, as against the time, effort, expense, and risk of opening a full-service restaurant.

In contrast, the past couple of years have been fairly slow for high-end luxury restaurant openings. Frank Bruni thinks it's because people don't want fine dining any more. He is wrong: just try to book a last-minute table at Per Se, Gramercy Tavern, Gotham Bar & Grill, Cafe Boulud, Babbo, etc., etc.. The problem isn't lack of demand; there is more of it than the existing places can handle. But investors are scared of the up-front expense and risk of opening a place that takes years to plan and could quite easily fail.

There's no such problem for a serious cocktail bar or a steakhouse.

[johnder]

One restaurant that clearly needs to be on your list is Tailor.

There is certainly a renewed interest in cocktails and cocktail creativity. It has also spread out around the country with recognition and homage being paid to some of the contemporary mixologists. Last night I had a Pegu Club cocktail at a restaurant in Saratoga Springs.

I knew I was forgetting someone. Sorry Eben.

[johnder]

Since I don't believe that masses of people are motivated by a desire for high-quality cocktails, my own conclusion would be that PDT and D&C are popular primarily for reasons other than the quality of the cocktails.  But John, you're really better positioned than anyone to know that.  What do you think?

PS -- How come we don't talk about the bar at Tailor in this context?  I'm not blaming anyone:  I don't, either.  Is it because it's attached to a full-service restaurant?  I don't really think of it as being in the mainstream of "cocktailian" lounges -- but I can't think of a reason why I shouldn't.

ETA:  I hadn't seen docsconz's cross-posted post when I wrote that PS.

____________________________________________________________

The crowd dynamics at PDT swing wildly from night to night. Typically on Sunday - Wednesday the crowd makeup is typically 50-60% of the people ordering off the menu, 10-20% of people ordering some form of classic cocktail (manhattan, margarita, sidecar, sazerac, etc) and the remainder ordering wine/beer or a vodka & soda.

I make the differentiation of the vodka & soda mainly because that is something we make a lot of.

Now compare these statistics to a Friday or Saturday and you probaly have 30-40% / 10-20% and 40-50% split.

The crowd dynamics skew way towards beer and vodka on Friday and Saturday. One could assume that the people drinking in the later category at PDT or D&C or Pegu aren't there necessarily for the quality of their beer or how well they make a vodka and soda (and for the record, I make a killer vodka and soda) they are there for the experience, mainly because any one of the city's 1000 bars can do the same thing, and cheaper. We charge the same price for a sazerac as we do for a Chopin and soda.


As far as Tailor, they can be under the restaurants with bar programs, but I think they should almost be residing in both categories. The lounge at tailor is one of the best rooms in the city for having a drink and is definitely cocktail centric. I have a warm spot in my heart for them, mainly because we are doing some similar kinds of drinks -- the fat washing and infusions.

[oakapple]

As far as Tailor, they can be under the restaurants with bar programs, but I think they should almost be residing in both categories.  The lounge at tailor is one of the best rooms in the city for having a drink and is definitely cocktail centric.

It's an important distinction. You might walk into Gramercy Tavern just for a drink, but it's not what the restaurant was built for. The lower level at Tailor very clearly was built for that.

[BryanZ]

That Fri/Sat 40-50% ordering beers/vodka-sodas is shocking, but I suppose it really shouldn't be. My most recent visit to PDT was the first time I've been in at one might consider primetime (Thursday, 10:30, holiday week), and even then I saw more than a few trays leave filled with vodka-sodas, beers, and glasses of wine. I was surprised. I could imagine it's even worse on Fridays and Saturdays.

[daisy17]

I've been spoiled. I simply don't want to drink crappy drinks anymore, and I have a VERY strong preference to sitting at the bar at the places you've named (including Tailor just for cocktails) and being able to watch and learn. The bar that Pegu set is being raised again and again at places like D&Co and PDT, and it's thrilling to experience. But as Sneakeater pointed out on the PDT thread, my night doesn't always start at 6pm, and it's not always Tuesday. I have always avoided these places late Fri/Sat nights. I ended up at Flatiron last night (Sat) at around 11, finally snagged seats at the bar, and the woman behind me leaned in to order a white wine spritzer. By 7:10 last Thursday every seat at the bar at D&Co was taken. The guys to my left didn't know a lot about cocktails, but were adventurous and loved what Brian made them. By 11, the 25 year olds at the table behind me were reluctantly ordering off the menu but "really wanted" vodka and soda. The enthusiasm for classic, well-crafted cocktails that these establishments have engendered is incredibly exciting, and I can't get over how much I've learned. But at the same time, the buzz about these places opens them up to Red Bull and vodka drinkers four deep at the bar. So it means that I have to plan ahead and go to them at 6pm on tuesdays. I don't think the market is saturated at all. Keep them coming.

[daisy17]

The crowd dynamics skew way towards beer and vodka on Friday and Saturday.  One could assume that the people drinking in the later category at PDT or D&C or Pegu aren't there necessarily for the quality of their beer or how well they make a vodka and soda (and for the record, I make a killer vodka and soda)  they are there for the experience, mainly because any one of the city's 1000 bars can do the same thing, and cheaper.  We charge the same price for a sazerac as we do for a Chopin and soda.

I have the solution. Open an astoundingly cool, hard-to-get-into, hidden cocktail bar with an emphasis on classic $12 vodka and sodas, and I'll be able to get into PDT at 10pm on a Thursday.

[Sneakeater]

Gold Bar.

Already happened.

I guess we need more of those.

[chefboy24]

ssssssssh

this is a major idea for my small business that i'm going to launch in 2009.

hush!

[chefboy24]

Since I don't believe that masses of people are motivated by a desire for high-quality cocktails, my own conclusion would be that PDT and D&C are popular primarily for reasons other than the quality of the cocktails.  But John, you're really better positioned than anyone to know that.  What do you think?

PS -- How come we don't talk about the bar at Tailor in this context?  I'm not blaming anyone:  I don't, either.  Is it because it's attached to a full-service restaurant?  I don't really think of it as being in the mainstream of "cocktailian" lounges -- but I can't think of a reason why I shouldn't.

ETA:  I hadn't seen docsconz's cross-posted post when I wrote that PS.

____________________________________________________________

The crowd dynamics at PDT swing wildly from night to night. Typically on Sunday - Wednesday the crowd makeup is typically 50-60% of the people ordering off the menu, 10-20% of people ordering some form of classic cocktail (manhattan, margarita, sidecar, sazerac, etc) and the remainder ordering wine/beer or a vodka & soda.

I make the differentiation of the vodka & soda mainly because that is something we make a lot of.

Now compare these statistics to a Friday or Saturday and you probaly have 30-40% / 10-20% and 40-50% split.

The crowd dynamics skew way towards beer and vodka on Friday and Saturday. One could assume that the people drinking in the later category at PDT or D&C or Pegu aren't there necessarily for the quality of their beer or how well they make a vodka and soda (and for the record, I make a killer vodka and soda) they are there for the experience, mainly because any one of the city's 1000 bars can do the same thing, and cheaper. We charge the same price for a sazerac as we do for a Chopin and soda.


As far as Tailor, they can be under the restaurants with bar programs, but I think they should almost be residing in both categories. The lounge at tailor is one of the best rooms in the city for having a drink and is definitely cocktail centric. I have a warm spot in my heart for them, mainly because we are doing some similar kinds of drinks -- the fat washing and infusions.

i can't believe you let people order vodka and soda!
just say no.

although i smile, grin, and bare it when people ask for ketel up with a twist (and continue to drink this for the duration of their meal), when they could try any of over 1500 bottles of italian wine on my list.


also - side note - sazerac is $20.50 wholesale, and ketel/chopin/goose are definitely more. sazerac is obv way more delicious.

but after all, chopin did win #1 vodka in some slate.com tasting.....but you sure as hell won't find me drinking vodka anytime soon.

Edited by chefboy24, 30 December 2007 - 09:35 PM.

[chefboy24]

I don't think the market is anywhere near saturated. As long as these places keep opening and succeeding, there will be more of them. It's the same reason that we keep seeing new steakhouses: they almost never fail. I also sense that these places are comparatively easy to open. I mean that only in relative terms, as against the time, effort, expense, and risk of opening a full-service restaurant.

In contrast, the past couple of years have been fairly slow for high-end luxury restaurant openings. Frank Bruni thinks it's because people don't want fine dining any more. He is wrong: just try to book a last-minute table at Per Se, Gramercy Tavern, Gotham Bar & Grill, Cafe Boulud, Babbo, etc., etc.. The problem isn't lack of demand; there is more of it than the existing places can handle. But investors are scared of the up-front expense and risk of opening a place that takes years to plan and could quite easily fail.

There's no such problem for a serious cocktail bar or a steakhouse.

i would never say that bruni doesn't think people want fine dining!!
he never implied that at all!

he has only said that the last year of restaurants, 2007, has been primarily low budget homey small scale places, and these places have had the most interesting food over the last year.

as opposed to 2004/2005/2006 where there were some major large scale $10 million restaurants that opened (craftsteak, del posto, morimoto, nobu 57, megu, budakhan, per se, yada yada yada)

[oakapple]

i would never say that bruni doesn't think people want fine dining!!
he never implied that at all!

He not only implied it, but said so straight out. In his opinion, that's what "a new generation of food enthusiasts" wants — not the first time he has said so, either. Now, I've no objection to the straightforward observation that 2007 was a year dominated by "low budget homey small scale places," a fact obvious to anyone paying attention. But I think his analysis of the underlying reasons is naive and simplistic.

[Nathan]

1. yes, interest in serious cocktails is definitely increasing...the real proof of that is the number of restaurants that are finally taking cocktails seriously...places that you wouldn't even expect, like Back 40 and Dell'Amina. so, it's there.

2. no, it's not enough to fill these places up.

3. D&C and PDT have had a fair amount of "hot" writeups...thus all the goose/soda orders on the weekends. Thursday through Sunday (and sometimes during the week) you'll see large groups of B&T being turned away from both of those places (because of space, not because they're B&T). with time, that will fade. put it this way, there are plenty of people (most?) who think of D&C and PDT in exactly the same way that think of La Esquina. M&H has had this cachet for years.

4. it's always been the case that most of the people at Flatiron Lounge are not there for the cocktails. that's true of Pegu on the weekends as well. probably true of any bar that size.

[Kent Wang]

Maybe they should implement some sort of multiple-choice written test to screen out the lamers on busy nights. Or a personal essay.

[daisy17]

Then we have restaurants that have (or tried to have) a serious cocktail program)

Gin Lane (closed)
Irving Mill
WD-50
Gramercy Tavern
Gordon Ramsay
The Modern
Tailor

I've been thinking about this part of johnder's post. (I might add Bobo to this list based on what I've heard from reputable sources, but I haven't been there yet. Also, Freeman's takes its cocktails seriously and the bartenders know their shit.) On my only visit to Irving Mill the bartender shook the Negroni my dining companion ordered. I don't think Gotham even has a cocktail menu. Why aren't more restaurants investing in training their bartenders and developing good cocktail programs? Certainly the talent can be hired on a consulting basis. Does that not work long-term because the training and ongoing development don't continue? I think the demand on the customer side is there too.

[Nathan]

I can't get too worked up about a Negroni being shaken. that's how they do it throughout Italy after all (at least in my experience).
not that I'm opposed to purism for the sake of purism.

after all, Southwark in Philly...which has an excellent rye list and makes a good Manhattan....shakes its Manhattans. I think Dr. Cocktail shakes almost everything as well. personal preference.

[daisy17]

That wasn't really my point. (But I don't think it was done that way because he learned how to make his Negronis in Italy.)

[jsmeeker]

Then we have restaurants that have (or tried to have) a serious cocktail program)

Gin Lane (closed)
Irving Mill
WD-50
Gramercy Tavern
Gordon Ramsay
The Modern
Tailor

Why aren't more restaurants investing in training their bartenders and developing good cocktail programs? Certainly the talent can be hired on a consulting basis. Does that not work long-term because the training and ongoing development don't continue? I think the demand on the customer side is there too.

I wonder this too. Of course, it's not limited to New York.

I don't know if every city can support a true "cocktilian" bar scene, but you would think that if there was a place to start in most cities, it would be in top restaurants . Aferall, it's pretty normal to see chefs and kitchens care about all the ingredients going into the dishes that are sent out. They aren't using a lot of commerically prepared stuff. But the bar? Commerical mixes and what not are very standard almost every place.

Some chefs get serious about wine. It would be nice to see more get serious about cocktails.

[Nathan]

my point is that without tasting the Negroni (did he chill the glass? measure? (the Negroni is one of the few drinks that can be reliably free-poured) shake long and hard (since he's shaking...in fact, if a bartender shakes for any length of time with any sort of energy...which "normal" bartenders simply don't do....then they have some sense)) it's hard to reach any conclusion as to how seriously they take cocktails.