53 replies to this topic

[thirtyoneknots]

Moderator Note, this discussion split from the Stomping Through the Savoy topic.

Cota Cocktail

1/4 Hercules. (3/4 oz Cocchi Barolo Chinato)
1/4 Cointreau. (3/4 oz Cointreau)
1/2 Dry Gin. (1 1/2 oz Bombay Gin)

Shake (stir - eje) well and strain into cocktail glass.

The ingredient Hercules continues to confound.

Cocktaildb's ingredient database (and the Jones' Bar Guide) suggest it is an Absinthe substitute.  However, making these cocktails with any modern Absinthe substitutes, they turn out to be rather horribly balanced.  They are usually OK, if I reduce the Absinthe substitute to a dash.

Sometimes when I visit the Cocktaildb home page (and I do quite often) one of the random pictures that shows up is what appears to be a label or advertisement in dutch for something that appears to be called "Hercules".

Hercules Advert?

I don't know Dutch; but, the words like "Versterkende Bloedwijn" and  "Kina Wijn" on the advertisement suggest it is for some sort of red wine based Quinquina.

Knowing that 3/4 oz Pastis, 3/4 oz Cointreau, and 1 1/2 oz Gin is going to be pretty undrinkable, I decided to experiment with a couple of the red wine Quinquinas I had around.  The first try, with Byrrh Assemblage, was pretty lackluster. 

Even though I suspect it is fairly unrelated to the intended Savoy "Cota Cocktail", the formula above, with the Barolo Chinato, was actually quite delicious.  Similar to a slightly sweeter and orangier Negroni.  Maybe call it the "Coda Cocktail"?

If anyone has any thoughts about a more appropriate Hercules substitution, please let me know.

Had sort of an "ah-hah!" moment today while rereading the earlier part of this thread looking for something unrelated.

The Ante Cocktail as it appears in the Savoy:

Ante Cocktail
1 Dash Angostura Bitters
1/4 Hercules (1/2 oz Henri Bardouin Pastis)
1/4 Cointreau (1/2 oz Cointreau)
1/2 Calvados or Apple Brandy (1 oz Laird's Apple Brandy)

The Ante Cocktail as it appears on Cocktail Chronicles and Drinkboy.com:

Ante

1 1/4 ounce Calvados
1/2 ounce Dubonnet rouge
1/4 ounce Cointreau
dash Angostura

So then it appears that somewhere along the way Dubonnet Rouge became the common sub for Hercules as that product slid into obscurity (presumably originally done by people who had tasted both of them). Similar, I suppose, to how different brands of bitters were subbed in as the available number of them dwindled. Maybe not case closed, but I think this, along with the ad from CocktailDB, is enough good circumstantial evidence to recommend Dubonnet or other red quinquina as a Hercules substitute.

-Andy

[eje]

I asked Mr. Wondrich about Hercules, (hopefully he won't mind me posting this!) and he replied:

According to an ad I have for it (ca. 1928), it was "the Nectar of the Gods." At any rate, it was produced by E & F Newall, Ltd, London, who billed it as an "energizing numatea aperitif" and bottled it at "strength n. e. 42 [degrees] proof spirit" (I'm not sure what that "n.e." means there unless it's "not exceeding," but at any rate that would be alcohol by weight, not by volume). What a "numatea aperitif" is, I do not know.
    In any case, I don't think it was an absinthe substitute, but neither does it appear to be a fortified wine, not at that proof.  A mystery (try looking up "numatea" or "numa tea"; ugh).

I suppose it is also possible that there was more than one beverage called Hercules, as that ad on the cocktaildb does really appear to be for a Dutch Quinquina.

Searching for Numa Tea and/or Numatea didn't reveal much.

The word "Numa" appears in the name of a popular online video, really skewing google results.

I think it means something like "world" in anglicized Indian.

Appears to be a place name in anglicized Japanese.

It also was a name of the legendary second king of Rome, Numa
Pompilius. Instituted Vestal Virgins, etc.

Edited by eje, 28 September 2007 - 01:34 PM.

[bostonapothecary]

I asked Mr. Wondrich about Hercules, (hopefully he won't mind me posting this!) and he replied:

According to an ad I have for it (ca. 1928), it was "the Nectar of the Gods." At any rate, it was produced by E & F Newall, Ltd, London, who billed it as an "energizing numatea aperitif" and bottled it at "strength n. e. 42 [degrees] proof spirit" (I'm not sure what that "n.e." means there unless it's "not exceeding," but at any rate that would be alcohol by weight, not by volume). What a "numatea aperitif" is, I do not know.
    In any case, I don't think it was an absinthe substitute, but neither does it appear to be a fortified wine, not at that proof.  A mystery (try looking up "numatea" or "numa tea"; ugh).

I suppose it is also possible that there was more than one beverage called Hercules, as that ad on the cocktaildb does really appear to be for a Dutch Quinquina.

Searching for Numa Tea and/or Numatea didn't reveal much.

The word "Numa" appears in the name of a popular online video, really skewing google results.

I think it means something like "world" in anglicized Indian.

Appears to be a place name in anglicized Japanese.

It also was a name of the legendary second king of Rome, Numa
Pompilius. Instituted Vestal Virgins, etc.

that hercules stuff gets cooler by the minute...

[thirtyoneknots]

42 degrees proof, or 21% alcohol by weight does not seem unreasonable for a fortified wine. Port regularly achieves 20% abv. When you get into lower proofs like that with ingredients intended for mixing, a somewhat peculiar grey area appears. Cynar, for example, is only 15-16% abv, barely above some table wines. I have never heard anything to indicate that it is in fact wine-based, and yet it sometimes displays attributes similar to high-end vermouths like Punt e Mes, mixing-wise. So was Hercules a high-proof fortified wine or a low proof aperitif spirit? Maybe we'll never know. I still think that red quinquinas are a good bet for most appropriate substitute though, given what we know.

-Andy

[Splificator]

42 degrees proof, or 21% alcohol by weight does not seem unreasonable for a fortified wine. Port regularly achieves 20% abv. When you get into lower proofs like that with ingredients intended for mixing, a somewhat peculiar grey area appears. Cynar, for example, is only 15-16% abv, barely above some table wines. I have never heard anything to indicate that it is in fact wine-based, and yet it sometimes displays attributes similar to high-end vermouths like Punt e Mes, mixing-wise. So was Hercules a high-proof fortified wine or a low proof aperitif spirit? Maybe we'll never know. I still think that red quinquinas are a good bet for most appropriate substitute though, given what we know.

-Andy

This would actually be British (Sykes) proof, which was generally expressed as degrees under (or over) 50, not 100. This makes it a high-proof aperitif spirit (42% abw = roughly 50% abv).

[eje]

re: Hercules

Doing a google book search I find an ad in a 1946 edition of "The Strand Magazine".

Unfortunately, it isn't available fully.

By manipulating the search, I can get the following excerpts:

HERCULES "HEALTH - COCKTAILS ARE SERVED AT LEADING BARS. "Hercules" can be had plain, when so preferred, or as the chief and most fascinating ingredient...that Create Appetite and Stimulate Digestion "Hercules" Wine Aperitif contains the phenomenal properties of Yerba-Mate, which has won the high opinion...TO TEST "HERCULES" WINE APERITIF send fi/6 for a full-sired bottle, carriage paid.
We will despatch by return. Later supplies must be obtained of Wine...

Edited by eje, 29 September 2007 - 02:08 PM.

[thirtyoneknots]

Is it possible that the name Hercules was used for two distinct products? If so it would seem one was vastly more popular/common than the other, or had already become defunct by the time of the Savoy's publication since it never specifies any qualifiers.

[bostonapothecary]

re: Hercules

Doing a google book search I find an ad in a 1946 edition of "The Strand Magazine".

Unfortunately, it isn't available fully.

By manipulating the search, I can get the following excerpts:

HERCULES "HEALTH - COCKTAILS ARE SERVED AT LEADING BARS. "Hercules" can be had plain, when so preferred, or as the chief and most fascinating ingredient...that Create Appetite and Stimulate Digestion "Hercules" Wine Aperitif contains the phenomenal properties of Yerba-Mate, which has won the high opinion...TO TEST "HERCULES" WINE APERITIF send fi/6 for a full-sired bottle, carriage paid.
We will despatch by return. Later supplies must be obtained of Wine...

yerba mate vermouth? sign me up... dry or bianco? and what other flavor notes was it likely to have? seville orange? Starting to sound like jamaican rootsman tonic health drinks... i drink it mainly for the "raw moon bush" and "nerve wisp"

i like the sound of that wormwood and gin... i'd pour some of that over my mawby... or maybe the sweet potato fly...

[eje]

So, to summarize what has gone before...

A defunct ingredient called "Hercules" is called for in a dozen cocktails, (Angler, Ante, Cota, Gene Corrie Cocktail, Genevieve Cocktail, Health Cocktail, New Life Cocktail, Personality a La Roy Cocktail, Ramon Newton Cocktail, Volstead Cocktail, Warden Cocktail, Wow Cocktail, and Zed Cocktail,) in the Savoy Cocktail Book.

According to the Stan Jones' "Jones' Complete Bar Guide" and the Cocktaildb ingredient entry it was an "Absinthe Substitute".

After making the Angler and Ante Cocktails with Absinthe substitutes, I began to wonder if indeed is an Absinthe Substitute. While there is no shortage of unbalanced cocktails in the Savoy Cocktail book, these two seemed particularly out of character. They almost worked; but, only if you reduced the amount of Absinthe substitute to a dash.

At the same time, I'd noticed that occaisionally an ad or label for something that appeared to be called "Hercules" (Hercules Advert?) sometimes appeared on the cocktaildb front page. When I examined that tiny ad, I discovered that it appeared to be for some sort of red wine based Quinquina.

When I made the Cota Cocktail I tried it with a couple of red wine based Quinquinas, and found it quite appealing, especially when made with Cocchi's Barolo Chinato.

At that point, I decided to send a note to an expert or two, and ask their opinion.

As you can see from the above, that's about where we are now.

Edited by eje, 01 October 2007 - 10:48 AM.

[eje]

One more note, I thought to search for "E & F Newall, Ltd, London" in the ad from the Strand Magazine which turned up in Google Books, and that text showed up in the same ad for "Hercules" which I quoted above.

"Proprs: E. & F. Newall, Ltd., Mate Products, (Dept. 11), 10 Philpot Lane, London, E.C.3."

With the additional quote in the same area of text, "Argentine Gauchos derive much of their remarkable virility from drinking Mate."

Also of note, "The Strand" was, (and is,) quite a famous magazine, notably publishing Arthur Conan Doyle's accounts of the adventures of Sherlock Holmes. It appears some local libraries may have vintage copies of this magazine, so if I'm lucky I'll be able to track down additional information.

[bostonapothecary]

can anyone translate the text on the poster eje links to?

its kind of crazy how something like this could get lost in history... are we only talking about 70 years?

i always thought it would be cool to start a forum of 20th century forgotten culture and then try to get elderly people to read it and answer questions.

[bostonapothecary]

could it have been some sort of pimms-esque bottled cocktail which would explain the high proof and the connection to red wine quinquina and to absinthe?

redwine vermouth spiced with yerba mate
absinthe for good measure
gin

bottle it up...

[slkinsey]

The text in the poster appears to be Dutch.

Zuivere Druiven in the upper left hand corner means "pure grapes."

Versterkende Bloedwijn means "fortified bloodwine" -- indications are that Bloedwijn is an older name for a red herbal aperitif wine including cinchona.

Gewaarborgde Zuivere en Versterkende Kinawijn "Kloek" en "Sterk" means "guaranteed pure and fortified kina-wine 'brave' and 'strong'".


That's as much as I can figure out with my limited abilities. All signs point to something like red Dubonnet or Lillet being a good substitute, perhaps with an additional pinch of cinchona.

[jmfangio]

Also of note, "The Strand" was, (and is,) quite a famous magazine, notably publishing Arthur Conan Doyle's accounts of the adventures of Sherlock Holmes.  It appears some local libraries may have vintage copies of this magazine, so if I'm lucky I'll be able to track down additional information.

According to the Google book search, they have back issues of The Strand at the Pasadena public library. I have to head out that way for an errand sometime this week. No reason that I can't make a little detour...

Edited by jmfangio, 01 October 2007 - 09:56 PM.

[bostonapothecary]

Also of note, "The Strand" was, (and is,) quite a famous magazine, notably publishing Arthur Conan Doyle's accounts of the adventures of Sherlock Holmes.  It appears some local libraries may have vintage copies of this magazine, so if I'm lucky I'll be able to track down additional information.

According to the Google book search, they have back issues of The Strand at the Pasadena at the Pasadena public library. I have to head out that way for an errand sometime this week. No reason that I can't make a little detour...

i'm sure boston public library would have it. their archives are incredible and i love an excuse to go up to the room where its at. (must take my camera next time)

does the bottle cocktail idea seem too far off? are their any famous ones besides pimms?

[thirtyoneknots]

Also of note, "The Strand" was, (and is,) quite a famous magazine, notably publishing Arthur Conan Doyle's accounts of the adventures of Sherlock Holmes.  It appears some local libraries may have vintage copies of this magazine, so if I'm lucky I'll be able to track down additional information.

According to the Google book search, they have back issues of The Strand at the Pasadena at the Pasadena public library. I have to head out that way for an errand sometime this week. No reason that I can't make a little detour...

i'm sure boston public library would have it. their archives are incredible and i love an excuse to go up to the room where its at. (must take my camera next time)

does the bottle cocktail idea seem too far off? are their any famous ones besides pimms?

That's essentially what Punt e Mes is as well, let's not forget. And it also overlaps into the aperitif wine category as well. I doubt it's an appropriate substitute, but perhaps they are kindred spirits (hah).

[hannnah]

I'll consult the stack elves and see if they can find the relevant volume (working in the world's biggest library has its privileges - I checked out one of our copies of the Savoy Cocktail Book last week and had just gotten to the point of wondering what the heck Hercules was! )

Update: Well, the elves came through, but the volume reference on Google isn't right - there is no ad for Hercules on page 61, or any other page for that matter. I'll have them pull the volumes before and after this one and see if I can find it there.

Edited by hannnah, 02 October 2007 - 02:13 PM.

[Splificator]

For the record (from Harry's ABC of Mixing Cocktails, ca. 1928):

[thirtyoneknots]

The lack of suggestion to dilute with water seems to be a strike against Hercules being an absinthe substitute, while the seperate line suggesting mixing with gin seems to lend some more credence to the idea of it being a quinquina.

We need to figure out what this stuff is. I had a dream about it last night

-Andy

[hannnah]

Found one of the ads that specifically says "Maté-Wine Aperitif" - scan coming shortly.

[eje]

A few things...

One of the cocktails in the Savoy Cocktail Book is the "Health Cocktail" (2/3 Hercules, 1/3 Brandy), given the similar verbiage to the ad, I feel pretty certain that the Hercules in the ad Splificator posted and from the Strand is the one called for in the Savoy.

Does "Numatea" equal "Yerba-Mate"?

I feel less certain that the Quinquina in the Dutch poster is the same product.

Others have pointed out to me that there was a French wine based "Absinthe Substitute" called Amourette. Though, on what level a wine based Aperitif can be an "Absinthe Substitute", I don't know. Similar herbs and spices?

I haven't tried Yerba-Mate; but, I believe, like Wormwood, it is quite bitter. Can anyone comment on whether its flavor is similar to Wormwood? Minty-Sagey-Bitter?

Serious Absinthe fanciers claim Absinthe's "Secondary Effects" include, "lively mental clarity and uplifted mood, not unlike that of caffeine." Doesn't sound too far from what I've heard of the effects Yerba-Mate, so I guess in that sense it does sort of qualify as an "Absinthe Substitute".

Or perhaps the idea of it being an Absinthe substitute, just resulted from some Vermouth/Wermut/Wormwood/Absinthe confusion?

[hannnah]

Ok, here's the ad - from vol. 74 of the Strand Magazine, Jul-Dec. 1927:



It clears up at least a couple of the questions - it's definitely maté-based, and they don't intend for it to be diluted with water (spirits perhaps, but not water).

As far as flavor profile, I haven't tried maté myself, but I have been around when it was being prepared and drunk, and it struck me as more along the lines of strong tea - bitter but not unpleasantly so - and it smelled a lot like tea. Per Wikipedia, "The flavor of brewed yerba mate is strongly vegetal, herbal, and grassy, reminiscent of some varieties of green tea. Many consider the flavor to be very agreeable, but it is generally bitter if steeped in boiling water, so it is made using hot but not boiling water."

Unless there's a lot of something else aniseedy in it, this stuff is sounding less and less like an absinthe substitute.

[slkinsey]

Yerba maté isn't particularly bitter unless it is infused into boiling water. I would say it's somewhat similar to green or oolong tea, only without the bitterness and astringency.

Edited by slkinsey, 03 October 2007 - 09:56 AM.

[Splificator]

More on the question of proof. That "n.e. 42 [degrees] proof spirit" in the ad I scanned has been troubling, because all of the uses for it in the ad suggest something of a lower proof than a standard spirit. Now I find upon investigation that, at the time, in Britain wines were defined for taxation purposes as being between 30 and 42 degrees proof spirit, so those degrees would have to be percentage points of proof (which was 50% by volume), rather than actual degrees of alcohol, and--more importantly--Hercules would in point of fact be a low-proof aperitif, rather than a high-proof digestif (I stand corrected).

Complicated stuff, this.

[eje]

Cool Hannnah!

Thanks so much!

All these ads are making me think it is more like a wine based Red Bull than an Absinthe substitute!

[thirtyoneknots]

All these ads are making me think it is more like a wine based Red Bull than an Absinthe substitute!

That was exactly what I was beginning to think. Futzing around with Google today and did a search for "numa-tea." It revealed a bit of contextual evidence that numa-tea is/was a soothing beverage known to a certain generation of Brits. Certainly fits in with what we're finding out here. Also, possibly a coincidence, but 'mate' is contained within 'numatea' so yeah not sure what to make of that.

So if you infuse Dubonnet or something similar with yerba mate it will make a passable Hercules sub? Or maybe just start with good ol' M&R rosso for a more neutral slate. I may have to try this.

Or I guess I could just send off for some

-Andy

Edited by thirtyoneknots, 03 October 2007 - 10:36 AM.

[jmfangio]

This is turning into a very interesting thread. There are a couple of herbal apothecaries in my area; I'll try to drop by in the next day or two to see if they have any loose yerba mate, or at least a straight tincture to start experimenting.

Regarding the flavor, Wikipedia says,

The flavor of brewed yerba mate is strongly vegetal, herbal, and grassy, reminiscent of some varieties of green tea. Many consider the flavor to be very agreeable, but it is generally bitter if steeped in boiling water, so it is made using hot but not boiling water. Unlike most teas, it does not become bitter and astringent when steeped for extended periods, and the leaves may be infused several times.

[bostonapothecary]

This is turning into a very interesting thread.  There are a couple of herbal apothecaries in my area;  I'll try to drop by in the next day or two to see if they have any loose yerba mate, or at least a straight tincture to start experimenting.

Regarding the flavor, Wikipedia says,

The flavor of brewed yerba mate is strongly vegetal, herbal, and grassy, reminiscent of some varieties of green tea. Many consider the flavor to be very agreeable, but it is generally bitter if steeped in boiling water, so it is made using hot but not boiling water. Unlike most teas, it does not become bitter and astringent when steeped for extended periods, and the leaves may be infused several times.

i used to drink alot of yerba mate. a studio musician and former bartender i know got me into it... it was probably compared to absinthe on a homeopathic level... but it could easily have anise added to the mix. anise is added to so many things like mawby for example... tea made from a bark but the drink usually always has various anises added... liqueurs like eque-baugh, more anise... anise would be the only way to make the bland vegetal flavour attractive. acai berries never stand alone... you market its homeopathic properties but you docter the flavor... a story as old as time... adding sugar to 25 brix like most sweet vermouths would drastically reduce any associated bitter...

[eje]

I don't know if any conclusions can be drawn about Hercules from the various Savoy Cocktail Book cocktails it is included in; but, here they are. It does seem to be used in a similar amounts to Italian Vermouth.

Angler Cocktail
2 Dashes Angostura Bitters.
2 Dashes Orange Bitters.
1/3 Hercules.
2/3 Dry Gin.
Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Ante Cocktail
1 Dash Angostura Bitters.
1/4 Hercules.
1/4 Cointreau.
1/2 Calvados or Apple brandy.
Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Cota Cocktail
1/4 Hercules.
1/4 Cointreau.
1/2 Dry Gin.
Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Gene Corrie Cocktail
1/2 Hercules.
1/2 Dry Gin.
Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Genevieve Cocktail.
1/3 Hollands Gin.
2/3 Hercules.
Stir well and strain into cocktail glass.

Health Cocktail
1/3 Brandy.
2/3 Hercules.
Stir slightly in ice and strain.
Note: Any desired spirit can be used instead of Brandy.

New Life Cocktail
1/4 Hercules.
1/4 Bacardi Rum.
1/2 Cointreau.
Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Personality a La Roy Cocktail
1 Dash Angostura Bitters.
1/4 Hercules.
1/4 Applejack or Calvados.
1/2 Dry Gin.
Shake well as strain into cocktail glass.

Ramon Newton Cocktail
1/4 Hercules.
1/4 French Vermouth.
1/2 Dry Gin.
Shake well and strain into cocktail glass. Squeeze orange peel on top.

Volstead Cocktail
1/4 Lime Juice.
3/4 Orange Juice.
1 Dash of Hercules.
Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Warden Cocktail
1/4 French Vermouth
1/4 Hercules.
1/2 Dry Gin.
Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Wow Cocktail
1/4 Bacardi Rum.
1/4 Hercules.
1/4 Calvados or Apple Brandy.
1/4 Brandy.
Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Zed Cocktail
1/2 Hercules.
1/2 Calvados or Apple Brandy.
Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

From the 1934 Second edition of the Savoy Cocktail Book...

Gun Cotton
2 Dashes Absinthe.
1/3 Hercules.
2/3 Gin--Booth's Dry.
Shake well and strain into cocktail glass.

Hercules Cocktail
1/3 Hercules.
2/3 Gin.
Shake well and strain into cocktail glass. Squeeze a piece of orange peel on top.

[MaxH]

In this thread are reminders of the medicinal or semi-medicinal origin of so many cordials and specialty wines. (Which continues: the digestive bitters so popular after meals in C. Europe -- Unterberg, Fernet Branca, Stonsdorfer, Wunderlich -- all used as traditional herbal medicines.)

Remember (I hope it's well known -- this has been in absinthe books for decades) that vermouth is from Germ. Wermut (wormwood, acc. to my Cassell's reference German dictionary). Vermouths have always had a connection with wormwood and mugwort plants, therefore with absinthe liquors.

Maté (yerba maté, aka "Paraguay tea") is a major caffeine source in Latin America (with or without the traditional natural or manmade gourd to drink it from), I think it was discussed on this site a few years ago. In the US (at least on the west coast) it's commonly available in specialty, Latin, and some general grocery stores -- the kind of thing you'd find in bulk at Whole Foods for example. It was common in my father's house in California 35 years ago -- he liked teas and coffees, and my main memory of the stuff (I still keep it at home but rarely make it) is a grassy appearance, pleasant savory herbal flavor, and that it is phenomenally cheap compared to other caffeine sources. It goes well with food. The Gauchos who herded the cattle of Argentina were (are?) said to live on eight pounds of beef a day and a gallon or two of brewed yerba maté.